What are some good brake pads?
Sep 24, 2003, 09:17 AM
#18
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Hi,
I've posted this in other threads, but wanted to repeat myself here.
You should think seriously about why you want to use non-stock pads. What is the performance problem you want to correct? If you just want Super-Duty-Carbon-Fiber-AgentX pads for bragging purposes, that is fine. But, if you want to improve braking performance, what is the drawback with the stock pads?
My experience with the stock pad performance has been excellent. I just got back from two days of lapping sessions at Road America. This course is about 4.2 miles long with three straights where I am braking from 120-130 mph to 50-80 mph (roughly), plus other braking points. I ran 3 30-minute sessions per day. On the second day two of the sessions were consecutive with about 5 minutes of sitting in the hot pits between them. I was using the stock pads with fresh high boiling point fluid and the anti-squeek shims removed, plus the factory brake cooling air diverters. I had no brake fade issues. I was outbraking cars with highly modified brake systems using a variety of pad types. This was an Audi club event, so Porsche "Big Red" calipers were popular with Pagid orange pads. At the end, my front pads were worn about half-way.
I've used the stock pads at two other events like this with similar good performance. An absolutely great thing about the stock pads is that they are cheap. Only about $62 from Conicelli. Even though the pads only wear about half-way during a two day event like this, I have been replacing the pads because they are so inexpensive.
Removing the shims made my car squeek a very little during low speed cold stops, but it is not objectionable to me. YMMV
My bottom line is that the stock braking system (including the pads) is fantastic as it is, as long as you do reasonable things like use fresh high boiling point fluid and optimize air flow to the brakes.
I've posted this in other threads, but wanted to repeat myself here.
You should think seriously about why you want to use non-stock pads. What is the performance problem you want to correct? If you just want Super-Duty-Carbon-Fiber-AgentX pads for bragging purposes, that is fine. But, if you want to improve braking performance, what is the drawback with the stock pads?
My experience with the stock pad performance has been excellent. I just got back from two days of lapping sessions at Road America. This course is about 4.2 miles long with three straights where I am braking from 120-130 mph to 50-80 mph (roughly), plus other braking points. I ran 3 30-minute sessions per day. On the second day two of the sessions were consecutive with about 5 minutes of sitting in the hot pits between them. I was using the stock pads with fresh high boiling point fluid and the anti-squeek shims removed, plus the factory brake cooling air diverters. I had no brake fade issues. I was outbraking cars with highly modified brake systems using a variety of pad types. This was an Audi club event, so Porsche "Big Red" calipers were popular with Pagid orange pads. At the end, my front pads were worn about half-way.
I've used the stock pads at two other events like this with similar good performance. An absolutely great thing about the stock pads is that they are cheap. Only about $62 from Conicelli. Even though the pads only wear about half-way during a two day event like this, I have been replacing the pads because they are so inexpensive.
Removing the shims made my car squeek a very little during low speed cold stops, but it is not objectionable to me. YMMV
My bottom line is that the stock braking system (including the pads) is fantastic as it is, as long as you do reasonable things like use fresh high boiling point fluid and optimize air flow to the brakes.
Sep 24, 2003, 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by tsi90awd
Hi,
I've posted this in other threads, but wanted to repeat myself here.
You should think seriously about why you want to use non-stock pads. What is the performance problem you want to correct? If you just want Super-Duty-Carbon-Fiber-AgentX pads for bragging purposes, that is fine. But, if you want to improve braking performance, what is the drawback with the stock pads?
Hi,
I've posted this in other threads, but wanted to repeat myself here.
You should think seriously about why you want to use non-stock pads. What is the performance problem you want to correct? If you just want Super-Duty-Carbon-Fiber-AgentX pads for bragging purposes, that is fine. But, if you want to improve braking performance, what is the drawback with the stock pads?
The problem with the brembo oem pads is that they are made out of a soft material that fades, has pathetic bite, dusts far too much and loves to transfer itself to the rotor unevenly leading to brake shudder. If you own a brembo clad Evo V-VIII, better aftermarket pads offer improved braking performance. Simple. This has nothing to do with "bragging". The Brembo OEM pads are NOT suited to very fast road use/ track use, no matter what
says!It is not clear from your post, was it a Evo you took to the track?
Last edited by jemm; Sep 24, 2003 at 09:58 AM.
Sep 24, 2003, 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by tsi90awd
My bottom line is that the stock braking system (including the pads) is fantastic as it is, as long as you do reasonable things like use fresh high boiling point fluid and optimize air flow to the brakes.
My bottom line is that the stock braking system (including the pads) is fantastic as it is, as long as you do reasonable things like use fresh high boiling point fluid and optimize air flow to the brakes.
These pics are from the brembo oems after a 100+ mph to 60 stop!
Notice the uneven pad to - rotor transfer?
Last edited by jemm; Sep 24, 2003 at 09:55 AM.
Sep 24, 2003, 10:09 AM
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There are quite a bit of Evo 1-3s out here, and if i am not mistaken, the DSMs share the same calipers and pads..
The Brembo clad folk like myself, have far more problems with brake shudder (aka "warping") than they do...
Poor pads & poor caliper cooling/airflow on the brembo evos seem to make the problems worse....
The Brembo clad folk like myself, have far more problems with brake shudder (aka "warping") than they do...
Poor pads & poor caliper cooling/airflow on the brembo evos seem to make the problems worse....
Sep 24, 2003, 10:55 AM
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Interesting views on both sides of the issue. For my application I must agree with Tsi90awd. I competed in 11 AutoX's and 1 (4 session) track day and have no complaints or problems with the stock set-up (they don't even squeek). Out of the 11 AutoX's, I've won 8 (2 different regions) so they must be doing their job. However, they do create excessive dust, not that's a problem. Also, the brake fluid and lines are factory as well. Maybe I'll notice the need for improvement after I switch from the factory Yoko's to Kumo's or Hoosier's next year (more stress on the brakes).
Sep 24, 2003, 11:56 AM
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The stock pads are great but I did not like the way the inital bite that the OEM pads showed, going from soft to hard. The XP pads feel the same if you are coming from 110 to 20 or from 40 to 20. The stock pads are soft at first then get hard and I was looking for a better cd then the stock pad and that is what I got with the XP's. Also it is too easy to swap pads on this car to not change them. Like I said before you have race pads, street pads, and so called street / race pads. The best way for ME is to use some great race pads and then swap back to my street pads. I wish you lived in Atlanta and I could let you drive my car, there is NO comparison on the stopping power of the XP's vs the OEM pads.
Sep 24, 2003, 12:29 PM
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Ryanmcd is not alone, various other forum members have reported vast differences in stopping power when they change their oem pads to another brand. For high performance street pads, Ferodo DS2500 or Carbotech Bobcats have been the one's used so far with great results.
Sep 24, 2003, 01:25 PM
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What type and/or brand name brake fluid would anyone recommend in place of the factory fill. I hear high boil, but I'm only interested in AutoX where braking speeds stay between 5-80mph. Any suggestions? Thanks
Sep 24, 2003, 01:46 PM
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Yeah, sorry, I forgot to say that the experiences I was relating was with a USDM Evo.
Another thing that I forgot to say is that proper cooling of the rotors and pads after hard use is important. After track use, the car should be driven around for a while at low-moderate speeds to allow the brakes to cool before coming to a complete stop. The friction material transfer tends to occur when the car is stopped while the rotors and pads are hot. This should be done with any car and pads.
After one track session at Blackhawk Farms, I didn't get a chance to do this and got the classic "warped rotor" symptoms. Of course, the rotors weren't warped, there was uneven transfer that led to some friction coefficient variation as the pads pressed on the turning rotors. A light "skimming" of the rotors corrected the problem.
As with many characteristics of a car, there are compromises in performace between track and street use. For brake pads, some of the compromises are:
1. level of brake dust generation
2. coefficient of friction change with temperature
3. noise at low temperature use
4. wear rate
5. fade resistance at high temperatures
I have been battling brake performance with my 1G DSM for many years with different pads, brake kits, rotor types, etc. My experience is that the stock Evo pads are compromised a bit to the track side of performance, not the other way around. They tend to operate better at high temperature, have good fade resistance, but dust more.
I have been spending more time than I really should following threads in these forums. Most of the information given is good, but sometimes there is misinformation. My main point here is to not give the impression to newbies that the stock evo brake pads are junk and they need to spend $200 on new pads immediately. That is not true. If you want low dust and high CoF at low temperature with no chance of squealing, then the stock pads may not be the best. They seem to be well suited for reasonable street use and good track use with a close-to-stock car. For modified cars on the track, you may want pads with a greater bias to high temperature use.
FWIW, my car has the RMR exhaust with the boost set at 19-20 psi - a bit faster than the stock car - but definitely not a heavily modified car.
Another thing that I forgot to say is that proper cooling of the rotors and pads after hard use is important. After track use, the car should be driven around for a while at low-moderate speeds to allow the brakes to cool before coming to a complete stop. The friction material transfer tends to occur when the car is stopped while the rotors and pads are hot. This should be done with any car and pads.
After one track session at Blackhawk Farms, I didn't get a chance to do this and got the classic "warped rotor" symptoms. Of course, the rotors weren't warped, there was uneven transfer that led to some friction coefficient variation as the pads pressed on the turning rotors. A light "skimming" of the rotors corrected the problem.
As with many characteristics of a car, there are compromises in performace between track and street use. For brake pads, some of the compromises are:
1. level of brake dust generation
2. coefficient of friction change with temperature
3. noise at low temperature use
4. wear rate
5. fade resistance at high temperatures
I have been battling brake performance with my 1G DSM for many years with different pads, brake kits, rotor types, etc. My experience is that the stock Evo pads are compromised a bit to the track side of performance, not the other way around. They tend to operate better at high temperature, have good fade resistance, but dust more.
I have been spending more time than I really should following threads in these forums. Most of the information given is good, but sometimes there is misinformation. My main point here is to not give the impression to newbies that the stock evo brake pads are junk and they need to spend $200 on new pads immediately. That is not true. If you want low dust and high CoF at low temperature with no chance of squealing, then the stock pads may not be the best. They seem to be well suited for reasonable street use and good track use with a close-to-stock car. For modified cars on the track, you may want pads with a greater bias to high temperature use.
FWIW, my car has the RMR exhaust with the boost set at 19-20 psi - a bit faster than the stock car - but definitely not a heavily modified car.
Sep 24, 2003, 01:59 PM
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I use the Motol 600 SRF I think is what it is, about 12$ per bottle, I used 2.5 when I did my brakes I wanted to make sure I got all the stock out. Also I have the air ducts. I think the key here is the Carbotech XP pads are CONSISTANT, not a soft then hard bite. It's much easier to brake when you hit the pedal and it's the same all the way, not hit the pedal hard then OH **** I AM IN ABS type deal. Lol
Originally posted by Silencer
What type and/or brand name brake fluid would anyone recommend in place of the factory fill. I hear high boil, but I'm only interested in AutoX where braking speeds stay between 5-80mph. Any suggestions? Thanks
What type and/or brand name brake fluid would anyone recommend in place of the factory fill. I hear high boil, but I'm only interested in AutoX where braking speeds stay between 5-80mph. Any suggestions? Thanks
Sep 24, 2003, 02:12 PM
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1st off GREAT post and thanks! Too many on here have never been to the track or don't even own a evo and are a "Expert" lol. Okay
Originally posted by tsi90awd
Yeah, sorry, I forgot to say that the experiences I was relating was with a USDM Evo.
1. level of brake dust generation - **** My wheels were BLACK after 2 track days, they did clean up fine the next day when I washed them and did 0 damage to the wheel. Some pads will pit the wheels been there done that.
2. coefficient of friction change with temperature - **** The XPs I think stop better hot or cold then the stock.
3. noise at low temperature use - **** When I first put them on no problems and wow they did stop good. After 1 track session they were noisey as hell, such as when I stopped at my company's parking deak and it's underground and it echo's. But that's the tradeoff and it's worth it to me.
4. wear rate - **** Not bad at all, I think I can get 3-4 More events maybe even more out of these pads. I will not know until I am done with them. Also they were easy on the rotors.
5. fade resistance at high temperatures - **** I have to say that I did smoke the stock pads on the street doing 100 - 0 stops took about 4-5 of them. These pads I did not smoke any. I was stoping deeper then anyone and almost ****ting my pants in the process until I could trust them. Next time out I know they are going to work fine and I will have 0 worries. It's nice to have that piece of mind. Also I have been doing track days for about 5 years so I know what I am doing. If you are just starting out the stock pads are fine but once you start catching high power cars using the brakes it's time to get a stronger pad. :-) Have fun and yes this car does kick ***.
I have been battling brake performance with my 1G DSM for many years with different pads, brake kits, rotor types, etc. My experience is that the stock Evo pads are compromised a bit to the track side of performance, not the other way around. They tend to operate better at high temperature, have good fade resistance, but dust more.
I have been spending more time than I really should following threads in these forums. Most of the information given is good, but sometimes there is misinformation. My main point here is to not give the impression to newbies that the stock evo brake pads are junk and they need to spend $200 on new pads immediately. That is not true. If you want low dust and high CoF at low temperature with no chance of squealing, then the stock pads may not be the best. They seem to be well suited for reasonable street use and good track use with a close-to-stock car. For modified cars on the track, you may want pads with a greater bias to high temperature use.
FWIW, my car has the RMR exhaust with the boost set at 19-20 psi - a bit faster than the stock car - but definitely not a heavily modified car.
Yeah, sorry, I forgot to say that the experiences I was relating was with a USDM Evo.
1. level of brake dust generation - **** My wheels were BLACK after 2 track days, they did clean up fine the next day when I washed them and did 0 damage to the wheel. Some pads will pit the wheels been there done that.
2. coefficient of friction change with temperature - **** The XPs I think stop better hot or cold then the stock.
3. noise at low temperature use - **** When I first put them on no problems and wow they did stop good. After 1 track session they were noisey as hell, such as when I stopped at my company's parking deak and it's underground and it echo's. But that's the tradeoff and it's worth it to me.
4. wear rate - **** Not bad at all, I think I can get 3-4 More events maybe even more out of these pads. I will not know until I am done with them. Also they were easy on the rotors.
5. fade resistance at high temperatures - **** I have to say that I did smoke the stock pads on the street doing 100 - 0 stops took about 4-5 of them. These pads I did not smoke any. I was stoping deeper then anyone and almost ****ting my pants in the process until I could trust them. Next time out I know they are going to work fine and I will have 0 worries. It's nice to have that piece of mind. Also I have been doing track days for about 5 years so I know what I am doing. If you are just starting out the stock pads are fine but once you start catching high power cars using the brakes it's time to get a stronger pad. :-) Have fun and yes this car does kick ***.
I have been battling brake performance with my 1G DSM for many years with different pads, brake kits, rotor types, etc. My experience is that the stock Evo pads are compromised a bit to the track side of performance, not the other way around. They tend to operate better at high temperature, have good fade resistance, but dust more.
I have been spending more time than I really should following threads in these forums. Most of the information given is good, but sometimes there is misinformation. My main point here is to not give the impression to newbies that the stock evo brake pads are junk and they need to spend $200 on new pads immediately. That is not true. If you want low dust and high CoF at low temperature with no chance of squealing, then the stock pads may not be the best. They seem to be well suited for reasonable street use and good track use with a close-to-stock car. For modified cars on the track, you may want pads with a greater bias to high temperature use.
FWIW, my car has the RMR exhaust with the boost set at 19-20 psi - a bit faster than the stock car - but definitely not a heavily modified car.