Maddmatt

That's fine. We'll just pull the Bobcat pads for the EVO off the market then.

msauer

Wow i was really expecting something more like ok lets try to figure this out!

jansolo

iTrader: (2)

Nope, they would rather just admit defeat. They won't even try to fix their products or support their FORMER customers. Definitely a company to stay away from at all costs. And here they were talking **** about the EBC's pads - at least EBC would offer replacement pads, but Carbotech is just a mom and pop company, nothing you can expect support from.

Actually, with this lack of support, how the heck could you ever want to buy anything from Carbotech in the future? If they won't help out their customers with Bobcats on the Evo, what makes you think they will help you with the Panthers if you had complaints?

"It's my ball and I'm taking it home!"

Maddmatt

We have figured it out.

The Bobcat friction material has a coefficient of friction that is too high for the EVO system. Because the coefficient is high, you need little clamping force to effectively stop the car on the street. The rotor begins to vibrate because there is not sufficient clamping force to prevcent it from vibrating. This vibration is what you hear as noise. This is *exactly* the same thing that happens when a wine glass resonates when you rub your finger on the rim. If the noise goes away with increased pedal pressure (more clamping force), this is absolutely what is going on.

We've tried chamfering the pads.
We've recommended re-using the OE shims.
We've recommended using disc-brake quiet goop.
Nothing works for the EVO system.

The only other solution is to make a low friction coefficient brake pad that requires a higher clamping force to generate the same brake torque. We aren't going to do that. We spent 2 years developing Bobcat. We can't invest the time/money to do that for one brake system.

Coolguy949

iTrader: (10)

I'm sorry to hear that Matt.

So what does that mean for people already with the Bobcats?

Also, you're saying it needs more clamping strength and a lot of honda owners i know have bobcats with no issues at all. Doesn't our brembo system clamp harder than honda brakes?? Is it then because of our pad surface area?

msauer

You didnt mention this shortcoming when they were sold to me!I could live with just the noise,but no better braking than stock and the same amount of dust also was not how these were advertised!?

Maddmatt

Correct! Becuase their braking systems are so much smaller and less efficient than the EVO system, they do require a much higher line pressure (clamping force) than the EVO. In addition, their rotors are MUCH smaller, which makes it harder than the EVO rotor to get vibrating. Result: no noise.

I have Bobcat pads on both of my cars (SE-Rs), a car I sold last month (Eclipse), and my girlfriend's Altima. Larry (the owner) has it on his F150 and Acura CL. All have typically small OE systems. Zero noise. None, at all ever. Nothing.

I will go to bat for you guys and try to talk the boss into a buy-back program. But don't hold your breath...

Maddmatt

Actually, because your brake system has so much more pad/rotor contact area, you will, generally speaking, need less clamping force to stop your car compared to a Honda. The fact that your caliper can generate more claping force than a Honda's single piston caliper has nothing to do with it.

3 things that affect brake torque are:
1)Brake line pressure (same thing as clamping force).
2)Coefficient of friction of the pad.
3)Area of contact between the pad and rotor.

The EVO has a BUNCH of #3.

jansolo

iTrader: (2)

That's where the customer service and loyalty should come in. If he denies it, then he is admitting he has none of either.

Coolguy949

iTrader: (10)

Matt, I'd be interested in a buyback program. Or maybe you can give me credit towards some panther + or just trade them for panthers at no cost to me. That would really make me happy.

Otherwise a buyback program would be great.

mprtklr

iTrader: (7)

heres the deal, you sold "as for the EVO" a brake pad that is ineffective and unsafe to use. you admit that they are not for the EVO and are a safety hazard to use on the car they are advertised for. you BETTER buy them back or i smell a class action lawsuit from the FIRST accident becuase you sold pads that are admittendly not for the car. Imagine GM saying publicly "ya we know the car blows up when you turn left, but oh well"

it doesnt work for them, and it wont for you.

Joe250

iTrader: (11)

Noisy brakes = Unsafe

Actually, I should say: Noisy brakes that stop the car quicker and with less chance of fade = unsafe



Joe
www.joe250.com

Maddmatt

Umm...sorry but you are *VERY* wrong. They stop the car great. There is absolutely nothing unsafe about the operation of these pads at all.

I did no such thing. Please point out where I did.

Oh really?

Good luck with that...

Where the **** are you getting this **** that we sold pads "not for the car"?!?

What he said.

There is a VERY clear disclaimer on every box of brake pads that leaves our shop. There is no performance warranty expressed or implied. The only warranty offered is craftsmanship: If they fall apart, we'll gladly replace them or refund your money. That's not what's going on here at all.

EJEvo

iTrader: (18)

Right. What's going on here is "The Bobcat friction material has a coefficient of friction that is too high for the EVO system". That sounds like the pads aren't exactly the best setup for the car to me.

So, we'll seduce you with marketing pablum like "Bobcat offers outstanding performance when cold, very low dusting, and low noise with an excellent initial bite.", but if you find that ain't the case, then we were just blowing smoke.

Another lesson learned, my fellow owners. Stick with the bigger, well-known brands that can afford to do the proper testing of product. The small-time guys can't afford to stand behind their product.

jansolo

iTrader: (2)

My friends have Panther XPs on their 240s are they make noise when they brake, but nothing like this. Now, I like the way the brakes *feel*, but I just dislike the way they sound. And the way they should goes against the product marketing claim. Now, if the marketing claim had said "great bite, makes noise though so be prepared to live with it", I probably would have skipped the product OR understood that I was going to experience a good deal of brake squeal. But, this pad is marketed as an everyday street driving pad, not a uber high performance track pad.

Look, we are not asking you to break the bank - just try to be fair to us - your customers