Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

I'm getting close to making some expensive suspension decisions and am looking for help and a good discussion. Feel free to take a stab at one or more of the list below.

Aside from engine mods, Ferodo 2500 brake pads, and OEM brake cooling air guides, I have a completely stock setup for the track.

I want a setup that is acceptable as a daily driver but would be faster at track days than the stock suspension. Also, I'd like to be able to adjust the setup for drag racing on occaision (reduce wheel hop, etc). I am looking at making the following mods, please advise:

1. coilovers: I'm considering the Ohlins, but exactly which ones?

2. camber plates/top hats? I don't know siht from Shinola about these... Works says they have custom camber plates ready for the Ohlins. Anybody install them yet?

3. Rear strut crossbar. Which one? Cusco aluminum is only $150. Do these really help?

4. Rear sway bar???

5. Wheels and tires: 17s or 18s? I want as much rubber as possible, without significant fitment issues. What can be stuffed under there? I live in a nearly rain free environment (inland SoCal). For wheels, I'm looking at Enkei RPF1's (light and affordable) and for tires BFG KD's, Michelin PS2s, or Bridgestone SO3s.

6. Finally, if I was to ever change to a limited slip front diff, would I need to change hardware on this suspension or just make adjustments to the coilovers?

Scottybob

iTrader: (3)

1) First of all, how much track experience do you have and how fast are you? I promise that if you are a novice to intermediate driver still working on skills you will learn much faster and easier on a stock suspension.

2) Have you tracked the car with performance alignment specs? This made a huge difference on my car.

5) 255/40 seems to be the limit on size without working to make more clearance. I'll be tracking 255/40' 17 Toyo's on an 8.5 RPF1 next week, and I'll post if I have any issues. If you are going to have track only tires shave them to about 5/32 they will last longer. Too bad Tire Rack charges so much to shave a street tire, but they will last longer.


P.S. for some reason the bling people seem to hate the RPF1, but I couldn't find anything close to those considering price/weight/rep of company etc.

chapter8

iTrader: (7)

Quoted by ft@slgp in another thread

ImportUpgrade

iTrader: (1)

I agree, pluys SLGP knows their stuff! suspension is such a hard thing to get used to especially with limited track time. I would bet any ohlins coilover system would be great if you set it up properly and get the car tuned right.

Kayaalp

iTrader: (1)

How exactly do you expect someone with little or no track experience to set up a coilover suspension? It's not like you just walk into a shop and have someone do it for you. Invariably, you need to fine-tune the handling on the track.

A novice driver will be so inconsistent that they will not have the sensitivity to balance the car properly. And an improperly balanced coilover suspension can be much worse than stock.

As a driving instructor, I have seen this mistake all too often. People who rush into suspension upgrades and R-compound tires end up being slower than guys who approach things one step at a time. To get really fast on the track, you need to be at the limit. You'll learn a lot more if the limit is lower at first.

Emre

Kayaalp

iTrader: (1)

It's tough to buy a coilover system and set it up yourself. It's worthwhile to look at front-running cars to see what they use. Back when I was driving BMW's, for example, it was clear that the E30 and E36 M3's prepared by Will Turner were the fastest, best balanced on the track. There was no reason to re-invent the wheel. If you had an E30 or E36 and wanted to be fast, you went to Turner.

The Evo is tough since it's new to the US market. So far, it seems RRE has built a reputation as setting up some really fast Evos. Their JIC kit looks like a really well put-together package, including camber plates and dampers that are adjustable for both low-speed and high-speed bump and rebound. They have the experience to help you decide on the ideal spring rates and set up your dampers to match. It's worth paying more for that kind of expertise and support.


You absolutely need more negative camber at the front for serious track use. I've maxed out my front negative camber (about -1.8 degrees) and it's not even enough for street tires. When you check your tire temps, the outsides are overheating. R-compounds are even worse in this regard. I would say camber plates are a must.


I'm not convinced that this helps at all. The rear shock mounts on our cars do not deflect under cornering the way that the front struts do. I really don't think you will see an improvement. And it will be much harder to load tires, tools, and spare parts in your car if you cut down on the trunk space! But anyway, it's cheap, so there's no harm.


This might be helpful on the stock suspension. Because the front suspension on our cars is set up WAY too stiff, the car has a strong tendency to understeer. The rear sway bar is a cheap way of cheating: by stiffening up the rear, you get it to lose some grip so the car feels more neutral. But this is a major compromise: what you're really doing is sacrificing ultimate grip for a more balanced car.

The ideal solution would be to soften the front. If you are going for coilovers anyway, then this will not be an issue. You should not need to rely on sway bars to correct a handling imbalance if your car is set-up properly to begin with. That's why I think you cannot overstate the importance of going with a tried, tested, and true suspension like RRE's JIC set-up.


18's make no sense for track wheels. You will severely restrict your tire choice. There is a much, much wider selection of R-compound rubber in 17 inch sizes. The best compromise is a 17x8.5 inch wheel. This will allow you to run 235/45/17 , 245/40/17 , and 255/40/17 reasonably. You can't go any wider than 255 without rolling the fenders. Besides, even E46 M3 racecars use 255 width rubber. You shouldn't need more than that!


Not really.

HTH

Emre

EVOQUICK

iTrader: (5)

Good info
Thanks

Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

Kayaalp,
Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply.

Kayaalp

iTrader: (1)

Glad to help. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Emre

hotrod2448

[QUOTE=Scottybob]1) First of all, how much track experience do you have and how fast are you? I promise that if you are a novice to intermediate driver still working on skills you will learn much faster and easier on a stock suspension.[QUOTE=Scottybob]

I agree with this. If you are new to the track just go with the stock suspension for a while. It is way too easy to dial yourself out if there are to many adjustments to tinker with. You can adjust one thing and have it effect something else. Ride height changes effect toe. Camber changes effect toe. It's alot to keep up with when your new. It's always good to talk to people at the track and see what is working for them. You should stray too far from what you know is working.

giumela

iTrader: (1)

Anyone know how the Ralliart suspension is like?

metaphysical

iTrader: (3)

Important points:

A) 95% of those who are commenting aren't race-car drivers and/or aren't suspension engineers, so we're just giving you "suggestions" which can be completely wrong opinions.

B) Since your asking "us", you also don't know. So, it's best to consulate someone who does know - which is not you, or someone who doesn't do this for a living or have 10 years of serious racing expertise.

C) Namebrands don't mean anything, you can have $15,000 worth of suspension and your car could handle worse than stock. Find someone who knows something, ie. someone who does this for a living.

D) Everything is a compromise, don't expect your car to ride like stock if you want to be really fast around a race-track. You will curse at every bump on the ride to work and thank god on the racetrack; or vice-versa. If you want a good ride, save your money and buy camber plates and get an alignment and a sway-bar.

E) It's very important that you have your car setup so you can drive it, not a professional race-car driver. If you get your suspension taken care-of by someone who does this for a living they will make sure they don't set it up too agressive and you don't crash your car.

F) Do I need X Brace, Do I need Spring Changes for this, What Swaybar? The person who sets up your suspension will know ALL the details, otherwise they shouldn't be setting up your suspension. Everything matters (minus braces that don't do anything) - John Mueller gives you alignment settings, tire pressure settings for different race-tracks for each tire, specific dampening settings for specific uses, they come pre-corner weighted, etc. He'll want to know how your going to be using the car, your experience level, your modifications on the car, the tires you'll be using, etc.

G) RRE is busy and sometimes difficult to get a hold of, but they know everything there is to know about AWD suspension. Stasis is another good shop, and Jason is a nice guy, that sets up race-cars, although they may be more expensive, especially if your already purchasing Ohlins which some uncomplete for $2200.

Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

Meta, don't assume I'm not doing it right. I like to discuss my plans on Evom because we can all learn a ton when the experienced members decide to join the discussion.

Here is an update:
Coilovers: I bought the Ohlin Road and Track struts from Vishnu/Britts, with custom Eibach springs 350lbs front, 450lbs rear. This is basically the same setup as the Vishnu shop car with less aggressive springs. The V car might have some custom revalving done but they are the same struts. Paul Gerrard, Shiv, and John Tak (autocross-bad a$s) recommended these. I have recieved exact settings for the Ohlins from Jason Whipple (strut settings, camber, toe, and even rear sway recommendation), which I will relay to John Mueller who is going to install them later this month. I figure John can use Jason's settings as an excellent baseline and fine tune from there.

Camber plates: I bought the Cusco from Vishnu. Recommended by Shiv, Jason, etc.

Rear sway bar: Paul Gerrard said go with a 25mm one from Road Race. I did. Jason Whipple says put it on the stiffest setting: I will when I get more used to it. Set it to the middle adjustment for now. Pretty amazing difference in handling.

Tires: I bought four Toyo RA1s, 255 40 x 17. I mounted them on the stock wheels temporarily and they fit perfectly. I little too much sidewall flex but that will fixed with my new wheels, when I get them. I got them brand new for $100 a piece. I will not be able to get more at that price.

Wheels: Pretty is as pretty does, so I'm going with the Enkei RPF1s. I really wanted the 17 x 9 with the 35 mm offset, but when guys like John Mueller and Robi insist that the 8.5 inch wide RPF1s with the 40mm offset is the way to go for 255s, I listen. (Goku too.)

Rear strut brace: No. I'll put that money toward something else.

Installation: I'm in contact with RRE/John. I may have to wait until the end of November, but I will. I am also going up to Vishnu within the next couple of weeks, so maybe someone at Stasis or Britts can do it..

I'll keep those interested tuned in as it goes.

metaphysical

iTrader: (3)

Well, it sounds like you have nearly everything done. I'm not exactly sure why you asked.

Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

I posted this thread over two months ago. I listened and asked questions for about a straight month, then I bought this stuff. It seems someone resurrected it from the dead, so I thought I'd give an update. Meta, well, what do you think? I'm sure I could have done worse...