I'm very concerned about the results posted in this thread. To me this entire test is undermined by the fact that the turbos were compared on completely different cars. The whole "likely modded" thing doesn't really work when you're talking about a significantly different drive train's.

Also a turbo is just an air pump you spin one side the other side generates air, the quicker you spin it the more air it can generate. So if you're only making 340WHP which would mean the turbo is putting out around 40LB a minute you're either not spinning if fast enough or the car just isn't able to intake more than 40LB a minute neither is the turbos fault.

I'm not saying buy a Black or that the EFR is not as good, all I'm saying is that this "test" is not valid in any way shape or form. I'd be happy to dig up posts on this forum showing our turbo doing as well or better as the EFR but that'd be beside the point.

If you want to see a proper turbo comparison look up Boostin's comparison of our 3794HTA vs. PTE 6766 same car, same day, same tune. That's as close as you can get to an accurate comparison, remember setups make power, not turbos.

-Michael

 

I'd agree with FP, as I said right away, you can't compare something like this at all, the MR vs GSR is a huge difference. Many people don't know how to tune the mR's either, I know of like 3-4 people that can actually make them make close to GSR power.

 

Truth!

"stock turbo"

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...402-399-a.html

 

don't clog this thread with that nonsense, its a mild bolt on x, it doesn't have magic "setup" power... 100's of others have the same setup and no one is close to that, everyone makes roughly the same 350-370 area.

 

Whoever called the EVO X turbine housing dinky is more than a little off base that housing equated out to 10CM functional flow and has made upwards of 650WHP more than enough for a 67MM turbine wheel.

I can't tell you why the MR only made 340WHP but I can tell you it's not because of the turbo. Just glancing through this forum there is 2-3 threads on the first page with people making more HP than the EFR7670 in question even accounting for 5% variance between dynos but that wouldn't be fair to compare them.

You want a fair test of turbos install shaft speed sensors and properly meter air flow to the motor and post those results.

-Michael

 

This isn't a 'pissing match', it's about looking at the available data. Everyone here is saying, "the FP Black isn't making power up to it's potential." Okay, fine. TELL ME why it isn't.

This is what I see, FACT:
EVO X GSR
BW EFR 7670 T4 w/internal wastegate gate 0.91 a/r
Full race T4 divided header for EFR turbo
Custom downpipe build by Racing Greed
Custom 3.5" intake built by Racing Greed
Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors
Cobb Access port tuned by Racing Greed
3" catback exhaust

Dotted Line:
EVO X MR
FP BLACK Ball Bearing Turbocharger (bolt on Evo X)
Full race prostock EVO X twin scroll turbo manifold
ATP EVO X Downpipe
AEM Intake
Injector dynamics 1000cc injectors
Open Port ECU tuned by Racing Greed
3" catback exhaust

Full-Race prostock manifold vs. Full-Race custom manifold for the EFR.
3.5" intake vs. AEM intake
ATP downpipe vs custom downpipe
Same injectors, same guys tuning.
Equivalent exhausts.

At 7610rpm, both cars are running nearly identical boost levels with the GSR setup making about 60whp more than the MR setup. So somewhere between the intake, turbos, manifolds, downpipes, and transmisisons, there is a 60whp difference. Anyone want to start guessing the breakdown in power difference between components? I want to hear what you guys think.

And yes, the stock turbine housing is 'dinky' for the size turbine wheel of the FP Black (which I'm assuming is about GT35 size). Follow this logic: MHI sized the stock turbine housing optimally for the stock turbine wheel which is ~56mm diameter IIRC. Ideally, going to a larger turbine wheel, you go to a larger turbine housing correct? Or thinking of it this way, if you put in a bigger turbine wheel into the same size housing that was optimal for the smaller turbine wheel, that housing is now on the small side of optimal for the larger turbine wheel.

Hey, people use 0.63 A/R turbine housings on GT35s every once in a while. Does it work? Yeah. Is it optimal? Not really.

So the facts are in front of everybody. Let's start having a logical discussion as to the power difference and what's attributing to it.

 

Maybe the fuel pump isn't getting proper voltage.

Maybe an injector is gummed up.

Maybe there's a split coupler causing a small boost leak.

Maybe there's an exhaust leak.

Maybe the spark plugs are fouled out.

Maybe there's a head gasket issue.

Maybe the motor is damaged.

Maybe the clutch pack/packs are slipping.

Maybe the tune is bad.

Maybe his intercooler is inefficient.

Maybe base timing was wrong.

Maybe it was 50* hotter.

Maybe his fuel filter was clogged.

Maybe he got bad fuel.

Maybe he's got cracked ring lands.

Maybe, maybe, maybe.

There is a lot more to making power than the mods you have on your car. Again at the end of the day a turbo is an air pump how fast you spin it determines the amount of air it puts out. The amount of boost is how much your motor pushes back against the air being generated and just because more air is being generated doesn't mean it's getting into your motor and making power.

On your logic of MHI designed it for just the right size wheel you mean the same way they engineered your stock motor to make 300BHP? Also let's remember that they offer a stock upgrade for these cars now the TF06-18K which has a larger wheel in it but still uses the same housing.

-Michael

 

duh! That is why we keep blowing them up

But seriously, the sole fact its an MR vs a GSR derails this comparo...

Lets just say cool dyno graphs and move on.

I don't think anyone here would argue that a full out t4 twinscroll isn't superior to a stock frame turbo, but the black is for sure not shown to its ability here and the results are skewed to show the full race destroying it. It should be better but you need a better comparison to show it.

 

Was the dyno done on the same day? I mean what if it was 60* one day and 90* on the other?

Two different tuning solutions as well.

Are the cars even the same year?

There is a list of variables and unknowns a mile long that invalidate this testing, if we were in a laboratory this would be called junk science.

-Michael

 

Hi Michael, I'm the owner of the 2008, evo x, gsr with the efr7670 setup. When we (RG and I) talked about posting my results we didn't have many local Xs to compare to (with non-stock turbo/setup combos). So, these two were included out of interest not as a direct comparison. Everyone is right, the setup/turbos are kinda, sorta similar in size, etc, and so vaguely comparable, but not really. Maybe we should have put the graphs up separately so that was more obvious.

We talked about doing a "generic" set-up and swapping out turbos one after the other on the same car, day, gas, etc, but realistically it would be way too expensive to buy a bunch of turbos just for testing, for our (fun) knowledge. So unless someone shows up with a black (or other turbo) that I can swap into my setup as is, to test and tune, you are right, no direct comparison, of the two turbos is really possible.
Sorry, if there was confusion, but we never meant to directly compare the two turbos.

My interest is really to see what we can ("safely") wring out of my setup on pump gas, with and with out meth. I've had the car on RG's and English Racing's dynos on my previous set up , and hope to get it down again with the new turbo after its all tuned to see what it can do on some good gas. Maybe those numbers might be more comparable to to a car/setup that they have tuned or otherwise have knowledge of?
John

 

Actually, if you posted the EFR setup by itself, everyone would be saying, "Damn, that EFR is garbage! It only made 395whp!" I GUARANTEE someone would say that. Why? Because it's showing less power than this FP Green on Cali 91 octane which doesn't even have an upgraded exhaust manifold:

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...91-octane.html

New 91 Octane Tune: 412 AWHP / 325 TQ @23.5 PSI. - tuned by Mitch at Cobb Socal
Old 93 Octane Tune: 383 AWHP / 356 TQ. @26 PSI - tuned by Calvin at Cobb Plano

Also - special thanks to the guys at Cobb Socal - Mitch, Reggie, and Ronnie! You guys rock! Definitely will be at the meet on March 9th!

Mod List
2008 Evo X GSR - SSS + Aero Package

Power Modifications:
(installed by Cobb Tuning Austin/ Cobb Tuning Plano)
FP Green Turbocharger
AMS Downpipe
AMS test pipe
Perrin Intercooler
Perrin Cat-back Exhaust
Deatschwerks 300lph fuel Pump
Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors
Cobb Tuning Intercooler piping kit
Cobb Tuning SF intake
Cobb Tuning FP Turbo inlet pipe
Cobb Tuning BPV
Cobb Tuning Accessport (6 Maps - 26psi/20psi/Economy for 93 and 24/20/Economy for 91)
HOA 3-port boost control solenoid

I'm done.

 

When I first got my fp red it was making about 40whp less than what it is making now. I talked to two different tuners and they both said it was maxed out for my set up. I went back and check off a couple of things on Michael's list there and voila bam iam up 44whp.

Also all dynos read differently so why are people posting other cars here and making even more irrevelevent comparisons.

 

I know you didn't start the thread but the thread title leaves you to believe they are being put head to head. Not only that but the way the data is presented also leads you to believe they're being compared. Then the discussion through the thread is also on the topic of them being compared. So it may not have been intended to mislead people in believing the 7670 is vastly superior to our turbocharger if you take it at face value it's a little miss leading.

Anyway no harm no foul I ain't even mad looks like you have an awesome car on your hands and I hope you enjoy it.

-Michael

 

Thanks!
It was a real blast, its sitting in the shop awaiting new buckets for the gsc s2 cams (with beehive springs, we are hoping to extend the redline a bit too!), and a new clutch master cylinder (the stock one only lasted about 4 months with a competition stage 2 clutch). I hope I dont loose too much down low with the cams. I will post the post cam results as soon as we have them.
My first track day of the year is coming up at the end of the month so I am trying to get ready for that

 

Its out of the shop now.
Hi just posting an update, gsc s2 camsand springs in now and tuning to 9k redline. This is on a MD with meth. We are having a problem holding boost above 7k rpm, if we keep the boost up it seems like the ECU is cutting fuel when we go above 7k, but if we let the boost taper off we can keep the revs up. I am posting in the tuning section as well because of whats happening above 7K rpm.
It is a very different drive now, not too laggy, but it traffic, no real power below 3k rpm. Still not too bad once you adjust your driving style.