What exactly does a "tune" consist of
Apr 30, 2008, 03:25 AM
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, Yeah, Damm'ed if you do and damm'ed if you don't! Of course your point raises another question. Is this OEM "tune" a
strategy to accomplish just what you suggest vis., the owner seeks to remedy the obvious poor OEM "tune" and by so doing eliminates same from the warranty pool? Interesting alternative explanation to the "rushed job" suggested earlier.
Apr 30, 2008, 03:40 AM
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In most cases with Evos they are modfied to a greater or lesser extent
To me tuning in those cases means adjusting the stock ecu tuning to compensate for the modifications which the customer has made to the car
Modifications effect the boost level and VE of the motor and in the case of the Evo X they result in CEL's and driveability issues which proper tuning can correct
Also, additional power throughout the power band can be achived by adjusting the tune to match the modifications.
In other less common situations we have customers with bone stock Evos who just want to pick up an additional 20 - 30 whp and a reflash tune can easily do that. This is where the rasiing of boost levels and altering air fuel ratios, ignition timing and cam timing. In addition to peak power gains, a good tune makes the car "feel" crisper and smoother. The OEM tune is not optimal for performance becuase it must meet emissions and regulatory limitations and it must work with a wide range of fuel and climatic conditions.
Finally, a tune can alter rev limits, boost limits, speed limits and two step limits to suit the customer's needs.
Al
To me tuning in those cases means adjusting the stock ecu tuning to compensate for the modifications which the customer has made to the car
Modifications effect the boost level and VE of the motor and in the case of the Evo X they result in CEL's and driveability issues which proper tuning can correct
Also, additional power throughout the power band can be achived by adjusting the tune to match the modifications.
In other less common situations we have customers with bone stock Evos who just want to pick up an additional 20 - 30 whp and a reflash tune can easily do that. This is where the rasiing of boost levels and altering air fuel ratios, ignition timing and cam timing. In addition to peak power gains, a good tune makes the car "feel" crisper and smoother. The OEM tune is not optimal for performance becuase it must meet emissions and regulatory limitations and it must work with a wide range of fuel and climatic conditions.
Finally, a tune can alter rev limits, boost limits, speed limits and two step limits to suit the customer's needs.
Al
Apr 30, 2008, 07:17 AM
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Well I did read it again and unfortunately nothing Al said actually provides information that explains the lousy OEM "tune". Specifically, the relavent section of Al's comment, "The OEM tune is not optimal for performance becuase it must meet emissions and regulatory limitations and it must work with a wide range of fuel and climatic conditions." First, how does a car burning A/F 8-9:1 "meet emmisions and regulatory limitations"? In fact, I do not even know how they pass emmisions in the first place with these A/F ratios. Second, if someone inadvertently adds 88 Octane fuel to an EVO or similar car requiring 91 or higher, there will be knock and the timing will be altered to protect the engine . But you argue that also increased the A/F to further protect the engine, then why aren't all similar engines also running this rich? Third, what "climatic conditions" are needed to run these ultra rich fuel conditions? Mount Everist? So even if this is true, then, say a BMW at the same altitude would be completely starved of fuel and barely move. I think not.
Now, where do we go from here? Would anyone (some of best tuners for example) be interested in crafting a letter to bringing to their attention the state of their OEM "tune" and, with humility, of course, ask (1) the reasons for these tuning conditions and (2) whether they would be interested in altering them in future EVO X to eliminate these problems resulting in the "best OEM EVO that can be"? If Mitsu complied, wouldn't the whole EVO community be happier? Just take a look at the number of users herein frantically requesting, no, demanding the factory reflash for latest and probably not the last ECU TSB!
also increased the A/F to further protect the engine, then why aren't all similar engines also running this rich? Third, what "climatic conditions" are needed to run these ultra rich fuel conditions? Mount Everist? So even if this is true, then, say a BMW at the same altitude would be completely starved of fuel and barely move. I think not. Now, where do we go from here? Would anyone (some of best tuners for example) be interested in crafting a letter to
bringing to their attention the state of their OEM "tune" and, with humility, of course, ask (1) the reasons for these tuning conditions and (2) whether they would be interested in altering them in future EVO X to eliminate these problems resulting in the "best OEM EVO that can be"? If Mitsu complied, wouldn't the whole EVO community be happier? Just take a look at the number of users herein frantically requesting, no, demanding the factory reflash for latest and probably not the last ECU TSB!
Apr 30, 2008, 07:30 AM
#19
i was always under the assumption that american's are retarded, and add boost controllers to tune up the boost, without changing the tune. in other words the OEM tune, was made to be idiot proof.
Apr 30, 2008, 07:39 AM
#20
, Yeah, Damm'ed if you do and damm'ed if you don't! Of course your point raises another question. Is this OEM "tune" a
strategy to accomplish just what you suggest vis., the owner seeks to remedy the obvious poor OEM "tune" and by so doing eliminates same from the warranty pool? Interesting alternative explanation to the "rushed job" suggested earlier.It could be warranty related as some have suggested. On the 8-9, you have to maintain a 100,000 miles warranty and so you tune the car richer than should be. But the X does not have a long warranty and the tune is really HORRIBLE. 8.8:1 is just atrocious. Hasn't Mitsu heard pf rich knock???
Another possible reason for such a crappy tune, is that it is Mitsu's way to keep the car in the spotlight. Mitsu does not encrypt the ECU and leaves it to the aftermarket to extract more power from the car. When the the car is tuned, the car will continue to be featured in car magazines. Shiv's Evo X was featured on Edmunds, for example.
Apr 30, 2008, 08:17 AM
#21
I have often wondered why Mitsu does such a bad job tuning the Evo from the factory.
It could be warranty related as some have suggested. On the 8-9, you have to maintain a 100,000 miles warranty and so you tune the car richer than should be. But the X does not have a long warranty and the tune is really HORRIBLE. 8.8:1 is just atrocious. Hasn't Mitsu heard pf rich knock???
Another possible reason for such a crappy tune, is that it is Mitsu's way to keep the car in the spotlight. Mitsu does not encrypt the ECU and leaves it to the aftermarket to extract more power from the car. When the the car is tuned, the car will continue to be featured in car magazines. Shiv's Evo X was featured on Edmunds, for example.
It could be warranty related as some have suggested. On the 8-9, you have to maintain a 100,000 miles warranty and so you tune the car richer than should be. But the X does not have a long warranty and the tune is really HORRIBLE. 8.8:1 is just atrocious. Hasn't Mitsu heard pf rich knock???
Another possible reason for such a crappy tune, is that it is Mitsu's way to keep the car in the spotlight. Mitsu does not encrypt the ECU and leaves it to the aftermarket to extract more power from the car. When the the car is tuned, the car will continue to be featured in car magazines. Shiv's Evo X was featured on Edmunds, for example.
thats a good point, maybe mitsu just wanted publicity in the tunability of the evo. making it more unique to each drivers style when they tune it...it also keeps us in competition with each other....maybe mitsi is in cahoots with shell and sunoco, and want to keep us there buyin this expensive gas everyday, so they decided to run rich...who knows....what does matter is, not nere one of us can say anything to pursuade them to have to tell us why it is the way it is, or make them change it...
obviously this platform have been created by them for years for some certain reason, just like them we have the opportunity to biuld our own product to sell, or dont buy there product..its that simple.
Apr 30, 2008, 09:23 AM
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thats a good point, maybe mitsu just wanted publicity in the tunability of the evo. making it more unique to each drivers style when they tune it...it also keeps us in competition with each other....maybe mitsi is in cahoots with shell and sunoco, and want to keep us there buyin this expensive gas everyday, so they decided to run rich...who knows....what does matter is, not nere one of us can say anything to pursuade them to have to tell us why it is the way it is, or make them change it...
obviously this platform have been created by them for years for some certain reason, just like them we have the opportunity to biuld our own product to sell, or dont buy there product..its that simple.
obviously this platform have been created by them for years for some certain reason, just like them we have the opportunity to biuld our own product to sell, or dont buy there product..its that simple.
has learned nothing over the years and are perpetuating their apparent indifference to this line of vehicle when it comes to OEM "tune". If the cause was incompetence, then we could all write in and ***** with the hope that would correct it so the poor slobs behind us buying the next EVO's wouldn't have to deal with it. If, however, there was a legitament reason for this "tune", then I think all of us could live with it. Finally, (yes I know I've beaten this thing to death) the addition of aftermarket parts are an option for all owners to increase performance but wouldn't it be easier if the base "tune" was more in line with the other manufacturers of similar cars?
May 5, 2008, 11:43 AM
#23
What Al posted is correct ... they are tuned conservatively to run in many different climates, altitudes and locations will many different types of fuel and driving styles. the OEM tune isn't technically "bad" for what it is designed for. It's designed to be safe. And, on a stock car, it is pretty safe for most climates and most driving styles. It's not running 9:1 because colder/warmer/humid/dry climates need more fuel, it just that in order to tune a car safely that could travel to and run properly from Chile to Poland to Alaska to Australia requires a VERY conservative fuel map.
When you tune, you set the car up for the exact conditions it will be running in. So, if you live on Everest, your car will run great on Everest with that Tune. But, take that tuned car to Brazil and it just might pop.
About the emissions thing ... emissions aren't tested at redline at WOT. That's where the Evo sees 9:1 AFRs. Other vehicles aren't running this rich because maybe you are looking at NA vehicles. I'd be willing to be that many factory FI vehicles run in the 9:1 AFR range for the same reasons that the Evos do.
Yes, I guess Mitsu could give a better factory tune for different regins that the cars are shipped to, but that would be more development cost, more stuff for dealers to keep up with and likely more warranty claims. What business would want to do that?
If you really do some reserach, I'll bet you'll find that the STi, WRX, SRT-4, Silvia, GTi, Cobalt, Cobra and pretty much every other factory FI car will give quite similar AFR results on the dyno.
When you tune, you set the car up for the exact conditions it will be running in. So, if you live on Everest, your car will run great on Everest with that Tune. But, take that tuned car to Brazil and it just might pop.
About the emissions thing ... emissions aren't tested at redline at WOT. That's where the Evo sees 9:1 AFRs. Other vehicles aren't running this rich because maybe you are looking at NA vehicles. I'd be willing to be that many factory FI vehicles run in the 9:1 AFR range for the same reasons that the Evos do.
Yes, I guess Mitsu could give a better factory tune for different regins that the cars are shipped to, but that would be more development cost, more stuff for dealers to keep up with and likely more warranty claims. What business would want to do that?
If you really do some reserach, I'll bet you'll find that the STi, WRX, SRT-4, Silvia, GTi, Cobalt, Cobra and pretty much every other factory FI car will give quite similar AFR results on the dyno.
May 6, 2008, 03:35 AM
#24
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From the mountain tops to the shining sea...
What Al posted is correct ... they are tuned conservatively to run in many different climates, altitudes and locations will many different types of fuel and driving styles. the OEM tune isn't technically "bad" for what it is designed for. It's designed to be safe. And, on a stock car, it is pretty safe for most climates and most driving styles. It's not running 9:1 because colder/warmer/humid/dry climates need more fuel, it just that in order to tune a car safely that could travel to and run properly from Chile to Poland to Alaska to Australia requires a VERY conservative fuel map.
When you tune, you set the car up for the exact conditions it will be running in. So, if you live on Everest, your car will run great on Everest with that Tune. But, take that tuned car to Brazil and it just might pop.
About the emissions thing ... emissions aren't tested at redline at WOT. That's where the Evo sees 9:1 AFRs. Other vehicles aren't running this rich because maybe you are looking at NA vehicles. I'd be willing to be that many factory FI vehicles run in the 9:1 AFR range for the same reasons that the Evos do.
Yes, I guess Mitsu could give a better factory tune for different regins that the cars are shipped to, but that would be more development cost, more stuff for dealers to keep up with and likely more warranty claims. What business would want to do that?
If you really do some reserach, I'll bet you'll find that the STi, WRX, SRT-4, Silvia, GTi, Cobalt, Cobra and pretty much every other factory FI car will give quite similar AFR results on the dyno.
When you tune, you set the car up for the exact conditions it will be running in. So, if you live on Everest, your car will run great on Everest with that Tune. But, take that tuned car to Brazil and it just might pop.
About the emissions thing ... emissions aren't tested at redline at WOT. That's where the Evo sees 9:1 AFRs. Other vehicles aren't running this rich because maybe you are looking at NA vehicles. I'd be willing to be that many factory FI vehicles run in the 9:1 AFR range for the same reasons that the Evos do.
Yes, I guess Mitsu could give a better factory tune for different regins that the cars are shipped to, but that would be more development cost, more stuff for dealers to keep up with and likely more warranty claims. What business would want to do that?
If you really do some reserach, I'll bet you'll find that the STi, WRX, SRT-4, Silvia, GTi, Cobalt, Cobra and pretty much every other factory FI car will give quite similar AFR results on the dyno.
May 6, 2008, 07:12 AM
#25
Altitude and heat change oxygen density which affects AFR. If you take a vehicle tuned at sea level or below up to 12,000' and laid on the throttle it would see huge knock counts. If the ECU couldn't pull timing fast enough it would likely pop. The same goes for a car tuned for 120ºF ran at -20ºF ... detonation and possible pre-ignition.
(EDIT :: I didn't elaborate on the example ... 12,000' would be much less dense than sea level resulting in a richer mix in open loop. Overly rich mixtures can cause knock and cylinder wash out. Also, in a FI engine, turbine efficiency would drop resulting in a hotter intake charge which could overheat the cylinder. This would again cause knock.)
Take a boosted BMW or whatever tuned with the same margin of safety and you'll get the same result. Lots of knock.
Tuning is science. Science doesn't change depending on the manufacturer. AFR is based on the amount of fuel and oxygen in the mix and how well it's being burned. No matter what the vehicle, tuned, untuned, NAor FI ... the AFR will change in different climates. Altitude, ambient temp, humidity, barometric pressure ... they all weigh in on the AFR.
This is why race teams tune cars for each event ... the climate at Seabring isn't the same as Road Atlanta. If they left one tune in the car it would perform poorly at different tracks/locations.
(EDIT :: I didn't elaborate on the example ... 12,000' would be much less dense than sea level resulting in a richer mix in open loop. Overly rich mixtures can cause knock and cylinder wash out. Also, in a FI engine, turbine efficiency would drop resulting in a hotter intake charge which could overheat the cylinder. This would again cause knock.)
Take a boosted BMW or whatever tuned with the same margin of safety and you'll get the same result. Lots of knock.
Tuning is science. Science doesn't change depending on the manufacturer. AFR is based on the amount of fuel and oxygen in the mix and how well it's being burned. No matter what the vehicle, tuned, untuned, NAor FI ... the AFR will change in different climates. Altitude, ambient temp, humidity, barometric pressure ... they all weigh in on the AFR.
This is why race teams tune cars for each event ... the climate at Seabring isn't the same as Road Atlanta. If they left one tune in the car it would perform poorly at different tracks/locations.
Last edited by TouringBubble; May 6, 2008 at 07:42 AM.
May 6, 2008, 08:43 AM
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KPerez, with all due respect, your question has been answered on number of occastions, from all or almost all possible angles of speculation or educated guesses, so why pro-long the discussion?
Fact: The initial factory tune seemed to be more crappy than usual
Symptoms: rpm issue at idle, studdering at wot in higher rpms, wicked rich afr, etc
Fix: Mitsu released a fix flash: problems solved for the most part
Future: there is enough room to turn up boost, advance timing, and lean out afr to make more power, go see the tuner for optimum tune in your are and make sure you tell them what you want: economy, reliability, power down low, power in the mid or high rpm ranges, or littlebit of everything
Period.
TouringBubble, good job, i wanted to add something, race teams not only tune for each event but retune car several times during the event as well
Fact: The initial factory tune seemed to be more crappy than usual
Symptoms: rpm issue at idle, studdering at wot in higher rpms, wicked rich afr, etc
Fix: Mitsu released a fix flash: problems solved for the most part
Future: there is enough room to turn up boost, advance timing, and lean out afr to make more power, go see the tuner for optimum tune in your are and make sure you tell them what you want: economy, reliability, power down low, power in the mid or high rpm ranges, or littlebit of everything
Period.
TouringBubble, good job, i wanted to add something, race teams not only tune for each event but retune car several times during the event as well
Altitude and heat change oxygen density which affects AFR. If you take a vehicle tuned at sea level or below up to 12,000' and laid on the throttle it would see huge knock counts. If the ECU couldn't pull timing fast enough it would likely pop. The same goes for a car tuned for 120ºF ran at -20ºF ... detonation and possible pre-ignition.
(EDIT :: I didn't elaborate on the example ... 12,000' would be much less dense than sea level resulting in a richer mix in open loop. Overly rich mixtures can cause knock and cylinder wash out. Also, in a FI engine, turbine efficiency would drop resulting in a hotter intake charge which could overheat the cylinder. This would again cause knock.)
Take a boosted BMW or whatever tuned with the same margin of safety and you'll get the same result. Lots of knock.
Tuning is science. Science doesn't change depending on the manufacturer. AFR is based on the amount of fuel and oxygen in the mix and how well it's being burned. No matter what the vehicle, tuned, untuned, NAor FI ... the AFR will change in different climates. Altitude, ambient temp, humidity, barometric pressure ... they all weigh in on the AFR.
This is why race teams tune cars for each event ... the climate at Seabring isn't the same as Road Atlanta. If they left one tune in the car it would perform poorly at different tracks/locations.
(EDIT :: I didn't elaborate on the example ... 12,000' would be much less dense than sea level resulting in a richer mix in open loop. Overly rich mixtures can cause knock and cylinder wash out. Also, in a FI engine, turbine efficiency would drop resulting in a hotter intake charge which could overheat the cylinder. This would again cause knock.)
Take a boosted BMW or whatever tuned with the same margin of safety and you'll get the same result. Lots of knock.
Tuning is science. Science doesn't change depending on the manufacturer. AFR is based on the amount of fuel and oxygen in the mix and how well it's being burned. No matter what the vehicle, tuned, untuned, NAor FI ... the AFR will change in different climates. Altitude, ambient temp, humidity, barometric pressure ... they all weigh in on the AFR.
This is why race teams tune cars for each event ... the climate at Seabring isn't the same as Road Atlanta. If they left one tune in the car it would perform poorly at different tracks/locations.
Last edited by pltek; May 6, 2008 at 08:47 AM.
May 6, 2008, 09:01 AM
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Altitude and heat change oxygen density which affects AFR. If you take a vehicle tuned at sea level or below up to 12,000' and laid on the throttle it would see huge knock counts. If the ECU couldn't pull timing fast enough it would likely pop. The same goes for a car tuned for 120ºF ran at -20ºF ... detonation and possible pre-ignition.
(EDIT :: I didn't elaborate on the example ... 12,000' would be much less dense than sea level resulting in a richer mix in open loop. Overly rich mixtures can cause knock and cylinder wash out. Also, in a FI engine, turbine efficiency would drop resulting in a hotter intake charge which could overheat the cylinder. This would again cause knock.)
Take a boosted BMW or whatever tuned with the same margin of safety and you'll get the same result. Lots of knock.
Tuning is science. Science doesn't change depending on the manufacturer. AFR is based on the amount of fuel and oxygen in the mix and how well it's being burned. No matter what the vehicle, tuned, untuned, NAor FI ... the AFR will change in different climates. Altitude, ambient temp, humidity, barometric pressure ... they all weigh in on the AFR.
This is why race teams tune cars for each event ... the climate at Seabring isn't the same as Road Atlanta. If they left one tune in the car it would perform poorly at different tracks/locations.
(EDIT :: I didn't elaborate on the example ... 12,000' would be much less dense than sea level resulting in a richer mix in open loop. Overly rich mixtures can cause knock and cylinder wash out. Also, in a FI engine, turbine efficiency would drop resulting in a hotter intake charge which could overheat the cylinder. This would again cause knock.)
Take a boosted BMW or whatever tuned with the same margin of safety and you'll get the same result. Lots of knock.
Tuning is science. Science doesn't change depending on the manufacturer. AFR is based on the amount of fuel and oxygen in the mix and how well it's being burned. No matter what the vehicle, tuned, untuned, NAor FI ... the AFR will change in different climates. Altitude, ambient temp, humidity, barometric pressure ... they all weigh in on the AFR.
This is why race teams tune cars for each event ... the climate at Seabring isn't the same as Road Atlanta. If they left one tune in the car it would perform poorly at different tracks/locations.
What is baffling here is how could Mitsu. have let this happen? They did the R&D for three years prior to its release this year, did a great job on the body redesign (IMO), suspension and engine but failed to perform a simple tune like Sean did at Ivytune. This was supposed to be
big come-back year and X was to be their show piece for the brand and a means to EVO-tize its other models. So who fell asleep at the wheel? All said, I will, like most others, have resigned myself to this deficiency in the X and will pay the price to get a tune that should have come from the factory in the first place knowing that, once installed, I will have one of the best AWD cars out there.
May 6, 2008, 09:14 AM
#29
I've noticed you've done it twice now ... but are you thinking that I'm Al posting under a different name? Please tell me you're not ...
I will agree with you on the crappy idle and misfires ... it's not acceptable with an OEM tune on a car they took 3 years to develop. They are offering a fix though. Something was obviously overlooked ... it may have been the emissions regulations in the States. They may have added hardware and not correctly adjusted the software to accommodate.
However, you simply can't compare the OEM tune to a custom vehicle specific tune from a pro tuner like Ivey. The two tunes are for completely different purposes and will obviously be dramatically different.
When it comes down to it, every OEM tune has room for improvement on the performance side. I think we are arguing different points.
I will agree with you on the crappy idle and misfires ... it's not acceptable with an OEM tune on a car they took 3 years to develop. They are offering a fix though. Something was obviously overlooked ... it may have been the emissions regulations in the States. They may have added hardware and not correctly adjusted the software to accommodate.
However, you simply can't compare the OEM tune to a custom vehicle specific tune from a pro tuner like Ivey. The two tunes are for completely different purposes and will obviously be dramatically different.
When it comes down to it, every OEM tune has room for improvement on the performance side. I think we are arguing different points.
May 6, 2008, 12:54 PM
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I've noticed you've done it twice now ... but are you thinking that I'm Al posting under a different name? Please tell me you're not ...
I will agree with you on the crappy idle and misfires ... it's not acceptable with an OEM tune on a car they took 3 years to develop. They are offering a fix though. Something was obviously overlooked ... it may have been the emissions regulations in the States. They may have added hardware and not correctly adjusted the software to accommodate.
However, you simply can't compare the OEM tune to a custom vehicle specific tune from a pro tuner like Ivey. The two tunes are for completely different purposes and will obviously be dramatically different.
When it comes down to it, every OEM tune has room for improvement on the performance side. I think we are arguing different points.
I will agree with you on the crappy idle and misfires ... it's not acceptable with an OEM tune on a car they took 3 years to develop. They are offering a fix though. Something was obviously overlooked ... it may have been the emissions regulations in the States. They may have added hardware and not correctly adjusted the software to accommodate.
However, you simply can't compare the OEM tune to a custom vehicle specific tune from a pro tuner like Ivey. The two tunes are for completely different purposes and will obviously be dramatically different.
When it comes down to it, every OEM tune has room for improvement on the performance side. I think we are arguing different points.
So we are agreed that
messed up on the OEM "tune". That said, Ivey's tune was bone stock i.e., no tuning for aftermarket parts resulting in the highest A/F of 12. So I am confused as to why this tune could not have been offered by Mitsu. originally unless, you say, to compensate for extreme environmental conditions. Wonder what BMW's OEM A/F looks like? Specifically does the A/F curve run richer or leaner than Ivey's or about the same? As further support for the differences between OEM world produced cars, the BMW AWD 335xi, 3814lbs, turbo I-6 has crank 300hp yeilds 25mpg (highway EPA est.); EVO X has 291hp, 3517lbs, turbo I-4 gets 22mpg. That is, a heavier car with 6-cyl and more horsepower gets 3mpg better mileage! This clearly shows that was out competed in an area they should have excelled in or, at the worst, equalled by one of its claimed X competitors and, IMO could have precluded this outcome if only they had taken the time to tune this engine appropriately. Sadly they did not and this is perhaps one of the reasons for their weaker than expected sales for 08 ...so far (although X sales are up ~14% over last year-taken from other threads).