KPerez

Yes, I know what has to be done to fix it. But that still does not mean I happy about having to do it! Ok, I'm done, stick a fork in me. It's over; I'll just pay my $750 with a big smile on my face.

TouringBubble

iTrader: (2)

I did some searching for 335(x)i dyno graphs and they do show the car a bit leaner than a stock Evo. The actually stay around 14.5:1 for a while and then constantly taper down to about 11.8:1 at redline. It's actually too lean through the first 2/3 of the power band. This is likely due to the 6-cylinder engine and lower boost levels, but it is a more aggressive AFR than the Evo.

I may be mistaken, but I remember some talk a while back about some of the BMWs running an almost completely closed loop system. This would mean that the AFR and boost levels would stay consistent in varying climates whereas the Evo's open loop fuel delivery would be inconsistent. The target is set in the ECU and feedback from various sensors help the ECU aim for a desired value no matter the conditions.

Let's compare to other turbo I-4s that use similar EFI setups ... Here is a stock 08 WRX fuel curve ...



Very rich, just like the Evo. And an '07 STi ...



The AFR bottoms out at 10 because the sensor won't pick up that low ...

I've looked for a stock SRT-4/1.8t/2.0t dyno but didn't find one quickly ... I've got to get back to work. I'm sure you'll find more of the same ...

StevenStarke

iTrader: (77)

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA





o MAN, SORRY ABOUT THAT, WAIT.... WAIIT WA

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



ok I'M DONE. that was just the funniest thing I've ever seen on this forum

KPerez

Tourbub, yes, you are correct the Subie and others are running rich but not as rich as the EVO but your point is well taken. The STI mileage is also poor (23mpg) but is 2.5l.
Now for the BMW, that is a very aggresive tune and ,while ignoring the validity of your speculation about closed and open loop, clearly this engine under high altitude or temperature would be in deep trouble vis., knocking like crazy, total limp mode. Correct? ["Just when I thought I was out, you keep pulling me back in (Michael Corrlione, Godfather II)"] So if BMW can do it in the 335xi, why can't do same in the X? German engineering/tuning better than Mitsu?

Mr. Evo IX

iTrader: (5)

I'm betting it was properly tuned to survive a variety of things like varying climate, american kids, wastegate failure, etc. Like I said earlier, it was tuned to survive.

Example

One thing that was recently discovered (not proven), was that the factory map may have been tuned to survive a disconnected wastegate hose. A fellow tuner was tuning a IX on high boost with pump and ended up right where the factory map was. I thought that was pretty interesting.

TouringBubble

iTrader: (2)

Well, based on the assumption of a closed loop setup, it would not change at varying altitudes/climates as the sensors would show the differences and the ECU could automatically correct for it. But if is in fact running open loop in a fashion similar to the Evo then I can only say it would have the same troubles (likely more) as the Evo in extreme climates.

Other companies could use closed loop tuning technology, as most already do for idle and cruise operation. The Evo even uses closed loop boost control in stock form. However, with this type of setup you run more of a risk of something going wrong with a sensor and the car basically "flipping out."

For instances, if your front O2 sensor stops responding on an Evo the ECU dumps tons of fuel in closed loop for safety because it can no longer monitor the mix and make corrections. This is pretty common. Now, imagine every ECU function on the car being controlled in this manner ... what happens when the MAP/O2/MAF sensor fails? Every system on the car goes in to safety mode.

By using open loop values you only lose partial function when a sensor goes bad or stops responding. This is my assumption why other manufacturers avoid these setups. And, honestly, German cars aren't know for their superior electronics, so I'd be a little worried if I were a 335i driver.

Again, this is based on my spotty recollection of the technologies they use.

Mr. Evo IX

iTrader: (5)

I hope you dont mind me paraphrasing^

I have to believe that the Mitsubishi designers, engineers. and techs - the actual people that designed, engineered, built, and assembled the car have absolutely nothing to to do with MMNA's terrible warranty service and support.

Evo_Jay

iTrader: (17)

The 335i has direct injection, thats why it runs way leaner from the factory

KPerez

So we have found that both Japenese and American I-4 Turbo engines run rich and, therefore, tuned conservatively to ensure the longevity of the engine by compensating for (1) environmental extremes of world market sales and (2) idiots who put in the low octane fuel, changing things that should not be changed, etc.
Now let's assume for this discussion that we, this audience, can eliminate #2 and decide to get an aftermarket tune and create a leaner tune like that developed by Sean@Iveytune, for example. Maximum A/F is 12 initially and then drops to ~11's to redline. By so doing we have eliminated the lousy idle (some have complained herein that recent TSB's have not correct this problem), hesitation and misfire. Additionally, there is an increase in whp of ~50 and better gas mileage has occurred. Now addressing #1 above, how safe is the engine when travelling to environmental extremes of temperature, humidity and altitude. I do not knpw how many times you guys drive to Death Valley or way up in the mountains but for me not very often. So if one confines oneself to the respective "local area" and the environmental conditions therein, then how far can one push the A/F upwards yeilding the associated benefits? In short, how aggresive can or should the tune be under ones' geographic extent, if you will? Is it correct to assume that all tuners know where these limits are so that deviation from the very rich OEM "tune" provide not only the benefits alluded to above but yet still maintain the safety of the engine. Perhaps the tuners could provide some insights into how and where these limits are determined so that the user community can be reassured that such tunes are safe and reliable.

TouringBubble

iTrader: (2)

I'm sorry man, but your question has been answered numerous times. Custom tunes are specifically for your climate/location. Let me just lay it out ...

1) the WOT AFRs you keep quoting have nothing to do with the idle. Idle fuel is closed loop and aims for 14.7:1 at all times for emissions purposes.
2) The idle issues you mention are more likely due to timing or MIVEC settings and have nothing to do with fuel.
3) The 50 whp didn't come from adjusting the fuel delivery. Most of the HP made from a tune comes from timing advance and increased boost levels and only a minimal amount of power is gained from a leaner AFR after a certain point.
4) Just because the AFR is leaner at WOT doesn't always mean that fuel mileage increases. More boost means more airflow and that means you need MORE fuel to compensate at WOT. Mileage increases do sometimes occur with tuning in part throttle, low boost situations where the AFR is more like 13:1. Mileage mostly depends on how heavy your right foot is.
5) An engine tuned for a specific climate will not do well in other climates with dramatically different environments. Think moving from Alabama to Colorado, not Death Valley and Mt. Ranier. Ask Warrtalon (God help you) how his tune had to change when he moved from AL to CO.
6) Ideal AFR for a gasoline burning FI vehicle is ~12.2:1 to ~13:1. We usually run between 11:1 and 12:1 due to the low knock resistance of pump fuel. Running below 10.5:1 or so will show a noticeable loss in power and running leaner than 13:1 will also lose power and leave much less room for tuning other variables (boost, timing).
7) A car is less likely to detonate with a richer fuel mix (slower burn, cooler charge) and that is the main reason for the super rich factory tune. You should be able to take a factory tune and run the car at WOT in a climate that makes for the absolute leanest mix possible and the car should run fine. A custom tuned car for the average climate would most likely pop. Now, if Mitsu dropped the ball on the factory X tune, thats another story.

Are your questions answered now?

pltek

iTrader: (33)

nooo,... make sure you have the newest factory flash which will get you to where a stock car should be.

what you do afterwards, is your biz. You can leave it, pay rip off price of 750 for ecutek, wait for ecuflash and tune it yourself, wait for cobb ap, do an aem standalone for 3+ grand + tuning, or put faith in some piggybacks of the Vishnu type, your choice

TouringBubble

iTrader: (2)

That makes sense. Do you know if the 335i has a closed loop system like I've mentioned?

TouringBubble

iTrader: (2)

Lookie here ... someone just posted their experience with a custom tune and different climates today. https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=343983 Take a look. He verifies what we've all been saying in this thread.

Lower elevation means a denser air charge and higher turbine efficiency which leads to a leaner mix. The AFR changes he mentions while driving at different altitudes reflect O2 density changes before the fuel trims have a chance to catch up.

Evo_Jay

iTrader: (17)

Yeah, I believe its all closed loop, IIRC.

Mr. Evo IX

iTrader: (5)

WOT Fueling is normally set to the richest level that still makes acceptable power. 11:1 - 12.4:1 are ballpark limits for WOT.

It depends on what the car is going to be used for.

For daily a driver, occaisional track use, I think the tune should be pretty conservative as it's likely to see all 4 seasons, AC use in traffic, possible substandard fuel, fuel economy, etc. 14.7 idle to 11.x at WOT depending on load, maybe a little over stock boost, improved boost curve, improved idle, etc. Car should be able to be driven around both wide open throttle and part throttle without knock on pump gas in it's home climate in multiple gears.

A drag only tune is setup to run hard for 12 seconds or less.. obviously we can be much more aggressive. Possibly a leaner AFR, increased boost and optimized ignition timing for a given fuel type / AFR. Tuned for a different fuel type possibly. A drag only setup might not have much part throttle tuning at all. AFR may be set accross the board 12:1 AFR etc.

A road racing enviroment might have a car in boost 75% of the time for extended periods of time. Richer 10.5:1 WOT possibly reduced boost and ignition timing. Since this is obviously very hard on any engine, race gas is probably a good idea here as well.

No, I dont think that would be a correct assumption. That would assume that everyone that tunes engines knows what they are doing, do you believe that?

How:
Different tuners use different methods to achieve pretty much the same thing. We utilize various tools and knowledge to extract maximum safe power from the engine (if your performance tuning). This includes but is not limited to engine tuning experience and knowledge, basemaps, software, interfaces / cables, widebands, dyno's, math, etc. For the most part engine tuning is a process of sneaking up on the results your after. Good tuners almost always start on the safe side and adjust towards danger monitoring everything along the way.

The limits you say? well those vary greatly depending on engine, mods, and enviroment.

Where:
Dyno or similar tuning device.