Clutch slipping at only 4k miles?
Oct 6, 2009, 08:04 AM
#16
have you actually tried this on a steep hill? What you suggest is exactly what I tried when I first got the car because thats exactly what worked for the ralliart. Unfortunately on such an incline, at 3k RPM, even if you go WOT as soon as the clutch engages, the evo will bog down and revs will nose-dive until it stalls 100% of the time. You'll hardly move an inch, and just start rolling down hill again. I don't think its a matter of driver skill when the car either stalls or it doesn't 
More feathering and lower revs = stall. Less feathering and higher revs = clutch smell. I've been focusing on making this part of my daily drive easier for months, and around 4k rpm is the lowest point rev range possible to get the car moving without stalling. And even the, it comes close to stalling! I guess thats life when you have turbo lag, 4 wheels to power, +3800lb and gravity all working against you.
On a side note, the ralliart only ever needed reved to about 3k rpms to make it up, assuming it could get traction. I think you're right about the extra 1k lbs not helping =/
Oct 6, 2009, 08:31 AM
#18
nope, not backing out. pulling straight out. The driveway is about 20 yards long, and 1/2 way down there's a turn off to a flat parking section off the side. Pull in to that and park on the flat area, then back out down the incline so you're facing up hill, and pull straight up to leave.
and really? sell my house because i picked a car with a crap clutch? I think a stronger clutch would be an easier solution
almost every house in my neighborhood has a driveway like this, and I live inside city limits of one of the biggest cities in the country. I don't think excluding 'people who drive on paved hills' is a good market strategy
and really? sell my house because i picked a car with a crap clutch? I think a stronger clutch would be an easier solution
almost every house in my neighborhood has a driveway like this, and I live inside city limits of one of the biggest cities in the country. I don't think excluding 'people who drive on paved hills' is a good market strategy
Oct 6, 2009, 09:55 AM
#19
Just did some testing on my lunch break. Closer to 5k than 4k miles on the odometer, not that it makes much a difference. I'm able to get out around 4k RPM, maybe a bit lower. But yea... no way it's going anywhere at 3.5k.
HOWEVER, I did try Gunzo's base ROM a few months back and remembered it being much easier to get out of the driveway. Been running stock ROM otherwise. So I flashed Gunzo's back on, and low and behold, I can make it out without stalling at 3k rpm. I didn't have enough time to do more tests, but if feels like I could go even lower with it. I logged a few exits and the AFR is dropping to 8's before it stalls with the stock rom, but stays above 10 with gunzo's.
So Mitsu gives us a dog of a tune from the factory with lots of problems. If we flash our cars to avoid premature wear, we void our warranty. If we dont, we burn our clutches and they tell us we abused the car. Is that the gist of it? FML
HOWEVER, I did try Gunzo's base ROM a few months back and remembered it being much easier to get out of the driveway. Been running stock ROM otherwise. So I flashed Gunzo's back on, and low and behold, I can make it out without stalling at 3k rpm. I didn't have enough time to do more tests, but if feels like I could go even lower with it. I logged a few exits and the AFR is dropping to 8's before it stalls with the stock rom, but stays above 10 with gunzo's.
So Mitsu gives us a dog of a tune from the factory with lots of problems. If we flash our cars to avoid premature wear, we void our warranty. If we dont, we burn our clutches and they tell us we abused the car. Is that the gist of it? FML
Oct 6, 2009, 10:31 AM
#21
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I wouldn't say I feather it. I usually hold revs at about 4k-4.5k with ebrake on, and let the clutch out as fast as i can without shocking the engine while letting the ebrake off. If I start with the revs any lower, it'll bog and stall 100% of the time. If I rev any higher, I smell clutch for the next 5 miles. Once I'm moving, I feed it more gas to keep it from bogging and try to keep RPMs over 3k. Sometimes the revs dive until the car is about to stall (even at WOT), then I just clutch in, drift back, and try again. The slope is one of the reasons I wanted an evo: my old car didn't have enough front wheel traction to make it out a lot of times
To make it worse, the road the driveway empties out on is fairly busy, 45mph, right after a blind bend. So as soon as the car gets to a stable speed, I usually have to stop at the top (still on a ~45degree incline) and do it again when traffic clears.
I don't think you could argue that it's abuse or normal wear, since I was able to do the same exact thing for over 2 years in this house with my old ralliart, which already had years of wear on it. And in a lot of parts of the country, situations like this are very normal.
To make it worse, the road the driveway empties out on is fairly busy, 45mph, right after a blind bend. So as soon as the car gets to a stable speed, I usually have to stop at the top (still on a ~45degree incline) and do it again when traffic clears.
I don't think you could argue that it's abuse or normal wear, since I was able to do the same exact thing for over 2 years in this house with my old ralliart, which already had years of wear on it. And in a lot of parts of the country, situations like this are very normal.
) and I don't even use an ebrake on hills. It sounds like you just need to practice slipping the clutch a tiny bit without rolling backwards. On a hill you are going to need to slip it a little (1500-2000 at most), but 4000-4500rpm is excessive.
Oct 6, 2009, 11:14 AM
#22
hills? in central florida? lol, ok buddy seriously though, neither do I on most hills.... try one with more than a 45 degree slope (if you can find one). With that much slope and a car this heavy, you'll be going at least 5mph backwards before you switch from brake to clutch and get the revs where you need them to be to release. Trust me, the extra backwards roll translates to more force that needs to be overcome by the transmission, which makes the car more susceptible to stalling without jamming on the gas... which burns the clutch its a catch-22. Image your evo weighting 4500lbs: thats what it's like using the ebrake. now imagine it weight +5500lbs: thats what its like when you start rolling backwards. And no, I'm not going to even try to master heel-toeing in my freaking driveway :P
I like how people who live in the flattest parts of the country instantly assumes I'm a horrible driver
I've done quite a bit of racing in cars with manuals: autocross, drag, road, even shifter carts. I held the record in the ralliart for 60' times on street tires+no boost for almost 2 years (same car and clutch that delt with this same driveway for years, mind you). All the skill in the world won't make up for physics.
seriously though, neither do I on most hills.... try one with more than a 45 degree slope (if you can find one). With that much slope and a car this heavy, you'll be going at least 5mph backwards before you switch from brake to clutch and get the revs where you need them to be to release. Trust me, the extra backwards roll translates to more force that needs to be overcome by the transmission, which makes the car more susceptible to stalling without jamming on the gas... which burns the clutch its a catch-22. Image your evo weighting 4500lbs: thats what it's like using the ebrake. now imagine it weight +5500lbs: thats what its like when you start rolling backwards. And no, I'm not going to even try to master heel-toeing in my freaking driveway :PI like how people who live in the flattest parts of the country instantly assumes I'm a horrible driver
I've done quite a bit of racing in cars with manuals: autocross, drag, road, even shifter carts. I held the record in the ralliart for 60' times on street tires+no boost for almost 2 years (same car and clutch that delt with this same driveway for years, mind you). All the skill in the world won't make up for physics.
Oct 6, 2009, 11:50 AM
#23
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It is hard to perceive the actual incline of a roadway and a lot of people make the mistake of overestimating. If your driveway were indeed at a 45 degree slope, you would have an extremely difficult time simply climbing it, never mind driving on it. A 45 degree slope is more like what tanks for the military are tested on (I have tested military vehicles in transport situations).
To put it in perspective, think of the steepest road you have ever seen or driven on and it is probably closer to 10 degrees. It can be hard to believe. The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand and it is measured at 19 degrees. It doesn't seem like much, but check out the pictures of the houses on that street.
That said, maybe you are also overestimating how hard you need to be on that clutch.
To put it in perspective, think of the steepest road you have ever seen or driven on and it is probably closer to 10 degrees. It can be hard to believe. The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand and it is measured at 19 degrees. It doesn't seem like much, but check out the pictures of the houses on that street.
That said, maybe you are also overestimating how hard you need to be on that clutch.
Oct 6, 2009, 01:05 PM
#25
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None of my previous cars have ever needed the clutch serviced, so I might be mis-diagnosing the problem. But I do think my clutch is slipping already. The car is only a few months old and it's never been launched hard. It's 100% stock with a wideband installed. However, my driveway is on a pretty steep slope, so I often smell some clutch burn when pulling out in the morning.... or I stall trying to avoid it.
So here's what's happening. Before, when I was cruising at any speed in any gear and I quickly stabbed the gas pedal any significant amount (anywhere from ~1" to WOT), I'd get a smooth rise in revs proportional to the rise in velocity. Pretty normal.
As of a few days ago, when I give a quick stab in any gear, the RPMS spike up about 1k RPM, the car pulls forward really hard, then everything settles down. Is this a slipping clutch, or something else funky with the drive-by-wire-system?
I've attached a log of a WOT 4th gear pull starting from ~3k RPM roll and the graph. You can see the revs jump as soon as the TPS peaks. Is this clutch slip or could it be something else? I'd be really surprised if the clutch is going out after just over 4k miles!
So here's what's happening. Before, when I was cruising at any speed in any gear and I quickly stabbed the gas pedal any significant amount (anywhere from ~1" to WOT), I'd get a smooth rise in revs proportional to the rise in velocity. Pretty normal.
As of a few days ago, when I give a quick stab in any gear, the RPMS spike up about 1k RPM, the car pulls forward really hard, then everything settles down. Is this a slipping clutch, or something else funky with the drive-by-wire-system?
I've attached a log of a WOT 4th gear pull starting from ~3k RPM roll and the graph. You can see the revs jump as soon as the TPS peaks. Is this clutch slip or could it be something else? I'd be really surprised if the clutch is going out after just over 4k miles!
Oil might be leaking out of your main seal. When the oil leaks it gets on the flywheel causing your clutch not to grab. It happened to my new GSR. So look under your car and see if you can fin any oil leak, mess where the tranny bolts to the motor..
Oct 6, 2009, 01:57 PM
#26
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............... I usually hold revs at about 4k-4.5k with ebrake on, and let the clutch out as fast as i can without shocking the engine while letting the ebrake off...................?????
Jesus, that's how Nasa launch their rockets buddy.
Jesus, that's how Nasa launch their rockets buddy.
Oct 6, 2009, 02:25 PM
#28
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Was your clutch smelling like it was burning up or was there no smell accompaning the slippage??
Oct 6, 2009, 02:56 PM
#29
Oct 6, 2009, 03:46 PM
#30
thanks for the tip Western Man, I'll check it out. BTW, that's a freaking nice viper!
kcandiloro: you're probably right. my driveway is defiantly more steep than the road you linked appears to be, but i doubt it's twice as steep. It's very difficult to walk up and many a UPS trucks and pizza delivery men who dared to come down needed towed out, if that's any indication
the rest of you: lol jerks again... miami and vegas trolling, yet there's no hills there. E-brake is obviously let go before the clutch grips, and modulated manually while engaging. Minimal brake force just to overcome gravity making the car drift backwards.
Want to see the alternative (not using the e-brake)? Run in reverse to about 15mph on one of your pristine flat sissy streets. Don't slow down, clutch in, then give it some gas and throw it into 1st. See what happens. I don't care how you do it, but the result is the same and you'd be better off stopping first. Overcoming minimum braking force if its needed to prevent the car from moving backward is a better tradeoff. For someone who knows so much about NASA shuttles, i figured understanding simple inertia wouldn't seem like rocket science
kcandiloro: you're probably right. my driveway is defiantly more steep than the road you linked appears to be, but i doubt it's twice as steep. It's very difficult to walk up and many a UPS trucks and pizza delivery men who dared to come down needed towed out, if that's any indication
the rest of you: lol jerks
again... miami and vegas trolling, yet there's no hills there. E-brake is obviously let go before the clutch grips, and modulated manually while engaging. Minimal brake force just to overcome gravity making the car drift backwards.Want to see the alternative (not using the e-brake)? Run in reverse to about 15mph on one of your pristine flat sissy streets. Don't slow down, clutch in, then give it some gas and throw it into 1st. See what happens. I don't care how you do it, but the result is the same and you'd be better off stopping first. Overcoming minimum braking force if its needed to prevent the car from moving backward is a better tradeoff. For someone who knows so much about NASA shuttles, i figured understanding simple inertia wouldn't seem like rocket science
Last edited by blk-majik; Oct 6, 2009 at 03:49 PM.