4 point harness
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 211
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From: Calgary, AB Canada
I have a takata harness for my 08 lancer=P
and u dont need a harness bar nessarly to mount a harness i dont have a harness bar in my 08 but it works just fine
as long as the angle of the harness is at a 45 degree angle and not a 90 degree angle
and u dont need a harness bar nessarly to mount a harness i dont have a harness bar in my 08 but it works just fine
as long as the angle of the harness is at a 45 degree angle and not a 90 degree angle
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
From: Calgary, AB Canada
I have a Takata 4 point harness for my 08 lancer =P
u dont nessarly need a harness bar if u mount it properly at a 45 degree angle and not at a 90 degree angle
the down side of a harness is that instead of sitting 5 people u can only sit 4
u dont nessarly need a harness bar if u mount it properly at a 45 degree angle and not at a 90 degree angle
the down side of a harness is that instead of sitting 5 people u can only sit 4
I'll save some typing and post SpeedVenture's response when asked if that setup could be used at their track days:
Originally Posted by SpeedVentures
The setup you have on your car is the exact same setup implicated in two very serious injuries at Streets of Willow about two years ago. My understanding of the problem is that the length of the belts is too long. Each inch of belt stretches so much. You have such a long belt that, under extreme force, it will stretch much farther than is safely allowable. You could hit your face on the steering wheel (which happened to the driver in the incident I’m mentioning), or when you double recoil (or continuously recoil back and forth if you’re rolling) you will submarine under the dashboard. If the car is rolling you might even eject out the top of the belts (because they can come off your shoulders as your body slams back and forth and either submarines or comes out the top).
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
From: Calgary, AB Canada
for Track HARNESS BAR IS A MUST
but for regular driving i dont think its as as nessarly but would b nice 2 have a harness bar
cause my friend totalled his car and his front airbag didnt deploy and he told me that his harness saved his life, and his face didnt end up hittin the steering wheel
he told me when crashing its like some1 is huggin u while u crash rofl
yes i do mean like that
for Track HARNESS BAR IS A MUST
but for regular driving i dont think its as as nessarly but would b nice 2 have a harness bar
cause my friend totalled his car and his front airbag didnt deploy and he told me that his harness saved his life, and his face didnt end up hittin the steering wheel
he told me when crashing its like some1 is huggin u while u crash rofl
for Track HARNESS BAR IS A MUST
but for regular driving i dont think its as as nessarly but would b nice 2 have a harness bar
cause my friend totalled his car and his front airbag didnt deploy and he told me that his harness saved his life, and his face didnt end up hittin the steering wheel
he told me when crashing its like some1 is huggin u while u crash rofl
A harness bar is the safest option for the front passengers - BUT it can not be overstated how important it is to either use the Schroth 4-point with the ASM or a true 5 or 6-point belt no matter what mounting option that you go with. A 4-point without the ASM device is MUCH less safe than the factory 3-point, on the street or the track. Without the ASM or a crotch belt you can very easily "submarine", or slip down below the belts.
Also, if you use a setup as shown above you are relying on the seat being able to withstand the forces of the belts pulling downwards in a crash, and you should only do that if you know that it has been tested. Most factory seats do not pass, even those with harness pass-throughs. For example, the seats in the new STI's do not pass.
Finally - I fail to see the difference in the level of safety or potential crash forces between driving on the street or the track. You want a proper setup that is at least as safe as the factory belts no matter where you are, right? Azn_ghetto - I hate to tell you, but your harness setup might hold you in nicely, but it is less safe than the factory 3-point belts. A lot less.
Also, if you use a setup as shown above you are relying on the seat being able to withstand the forces of the belts pulling downwards in a crash, and you should only do that if you know that it has been tested. Most factory seats do not pass, even those with harness pass-throughs. For example, the seats in the new STI's do not pass.
Finally - I fail to see the difference in the level of safety or potential crash forces between driving on the street or the track. You want a proper setup that is at least as safe as the factory belts no matter where you are, right? Azn_ghetto - I hate to tell you, but your harness setup might hold you in nicely, but it is less safe than the factory 3-point belts. A lot less.
A harness bar is the safest option for the front passengers - BUT it can not be overstated how important it is to either use the Schroth 4-point with the ASM or a true 5 or 6-point belt no matter what mounting option that you go with. A 4-point without the ASM device is MUCH less safe than the factory 3-point, on the street or the track. Without the ASM or a crotch belt you can very easily "submarine", or slip down below the belts.
Also, if you use a setup as shown above you are relying on the seat being able to withstand the forces of the belts pulling downwards in a crash, and you should only do that if you know that it has been tested. Most factory seats do not pass, even those with harness pass-throughs. For example, the seats in the new STI's do not pass.
Finally - I fail to see the difference in the level of safety or potential crash forces between driving on the street or the track. You want a proper setup that is at least as safe as the factory belts no matter where you are, right? Azn_ghetto - I hate to tell you, but your harness setup might hold you in nicely, but it is less safe than the factory 3-point belts. A lot less.
Also, if you use a setup as shown above you are relying on the seat being able to withstand the forces of the belts pulling downwards in a crash, and you should only do that if you know that it has been tested. Most factory seats do not pass, even those with harness pass-throughs. For example, the seats in the new STI's do not pass.
Finally - I fail to see the difference in the level of safety or potential crash forces between driving on the street or the track. You want a proper setup that is at least as safe as the factory belts no matter where you are, right? Azn_ghetto - I hate to tell you, but your harness setup might hold you in nicely, but it is less safe than the factory 3-point belts. A lot less.
thank you so much for that, i think u just gave us all a lesson on a little safety and believe me, i will take every word you said into consideration because i do not want to get killed while having fun on the track. again thank you for the time you put into writing that. i really appreciate it
thank you so much for that, i think u just gave us all a lesson on a little safety and believe me, i will take every word you said into consideration because i do not want to get killed while having fun on the track. again thank you for the time you put into writing that. i really appreciate it
The CG-Lock is also probably worth mentioning here. It is a simple device that you attach to your stock seat belt and it allows you to pull the lap belt as tight as you want and have it be held there. It obviously doesn't hold you as tight as a full harness, but it's surprisingly effective, cheap, easy, and safe: http://www.cg-lock.com/index.html
No problem, I'm happy to help. I just went through all of this in deciding the best option for my STI that I RallyCross. It's a lot more complicated than it would seem on the face of it, and now a lot of sanctioning bodies and clubs are tightening up their requirements after having some nasty incidents where some wrong assumptions not backed up by testing have caused serious and/or fatal injuries. So it is a pretty hot topic right now.
The CG-Lock is also probably worth mentioning here. It is a simple device that you attach to your stock seat belt and it allows you to pull the lap belt as tight as you want and have it be held there. It obviously doesn't hold you as tight as a full harness, but it's surprisingly effective, cheap, easy, and safe: http://www.cg-lock.com/index.html
The CG-Lock is also probably worth mentioning here. It is a simple device that you attach to your stock seat belt and it allows you to pull the lap belt as tight as you want and have it be held there. It obviously doesn't hold you as tight as a full harness, but it's surprisingly effective, cheap, easy, and safe: http://www.cg-lock.com/index.html
A harness bar is the safest option for the front passengers - BUT it can not be overstated how important it is to either use the Schroth 4-point with the ASM or a true 5 or 6-point belt no matter what mounting option that you go with. A 4-point without the ASM device is MUCH less safe than the factory 3-point, on the street or the track. Without the ASM or a crotch belt you can very easily "submarine", or slip down below the belts.
Also, if you use a setup as shown above you are relying on the seat being able to withstand the forces of the belts pulling downwards in a crash, and you should only do that if you know that it has been tested. Most factory seats do not pass, even those with harness pass-throughs. For example, the seats in the new STI's do not pass.
Finally - I fail to see the difference in the level of safety or potential crash forces between driving on the street or the track. You want a proper setup that is at least as safe as the factory belts no matter where you are, right? Azn_ghetto - I hate to tell you, but your harness setup might hold you in nicely, but it is less safe than the factory 3-point belts. A lot less.
Also, if you use a setup as shown above you are relying on the seat being able to withstand the forces of the belts pulling downwards in a crash, and you should only do that if you know that it has been tested. Most factory seats do not pass, even those with harness pass-throughs. For example, the seats in the new STI's do not pass.
Finally - I fail to see the difference in the level of safety or potential crash forces between driving on the street or the track. You want a proper setup that is at least as safe as the factory belts no matter where you are, right? Azn_ghetto - I hate to tell you, but your harness setup might hold you in nicely, but it is less safe than the factory 3-point belts. A lot less.
Show me test results! You present your theorys but you do not back it up with ligitament proof. I do not belive that a stock 3 point harness is safer than a 4 point harness (that is if you mount it properly). If you could possible submarine in a 4 point harness than that would mean you would have a greater chance to submarine in a 3 point harness. When you wear a harness the belts should be tighen down so you are not flying around in your seat but be able to move around. How is that possible that you are going to submarine in a 4 point harness and not in a 3 point harness? I would think a 4 point harness is alot safer because you are strapped down to your seat better than a 3 point harness. Come on its comman logic! In an accident, it would be safer for you to be in the car, than to be flying outside the car, right? A 4 point harness has a better chance of holding you in the car seat compared to a 3 point harness.
Originally Posted by SpeedVentures
The setup you have on your car is the exact same setup implicated in two very serious injuries at Streets of Willow about two years ago. My understanding of the problem is that the length of the belts is too long. Each inch of belt stretches so much. You have such a long belt that, under extreme force, it will stretch much farther than is safely allowable. You could hit your face on the steering wheel (which happened to the driver in the incident I’m mentioning), or when you double recoil (or continuously recoil back and forth if you’re rolling) you will submarine under the dashboard. If the car is rolling you might even eject out the top of the belts (because they can come off your shoulders as your body slams back and forth and either submarines or comes out the top)..
The setup you have on your car is the exact same setup implicated in two very serious injuries at Streets of Willow about two years ago. My understanding of the problem is that the length of the belts is too long. Each inch of belt stretches so much. You have such a long belt that, under extreme force, it will stretch much farther than is safely allowable. You could hit your face on the steering wheel (which happened to the driver in the incident I’m mentioning), or when you double recoil (or continuously recoil back and forth if you’re rolling) you will submarine under the dashboard. If the car is rolling you might even eject out the top of the belts (because they can come off your shoulders as your body slams back and forth and either submarines or comes out the top)..
Alot of you guys are saying that the harness bar is unsafe for the passengers in the back. If the passengers are wearing their seat belt, and sitting properly and the harness bar is wraped in foam (which is supposed to be), i dont see how the harness bar is unsafe. The seat belt should be holding you back before you hit the harness bar. And even if you do come incontact with the bar ever so slightly when you are WEARING your seat belt, the foam on the harness bar should absorb the impact.
Alot of people are tell each other how unsafe a 4 point harness is but if you adjusted the harness properly, have a safe tie down (hooks on to the back seat or on a harness bar), angle of the harness is within recomended specs then, a 4 point harness should be a hell of a lot safer than a 3 point harness, hands down! It comman knowlege, 4 point holds you down alot better than a 3 point harness. Look at all the race cars, they all have 4 point harness, i dont understand how some of you say 4 point harness are unsafe.
If i am wrong, prove it! Show me test results! Dont tell me your stories about your friend.
Last edited by Red Dragon; Jul 23, 2008 at 06:36 PM.
Evolved Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 594
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From: Hong Kong
I don't think he was saying 4-point harness was unsafe compared to 3-point harness with any given set up. His point was that it is safer to use stock seatbelt than 4-point mounted on to rear seat or a harness bar, instead of on a roll cage.
Unless you weld the harness bar it would be purely aesthetic. If the bolts holding on to the bar breaks or comes loose, then it would be more harm than good, #1 you will fly out of the car (which the stock seatbelt can prevent), #2 you will be flying with a metal bar attached to you
5-point is just a 4-point with crotch part, and 6-point is addition of string that ties helm to the bar right?
Unless you weld the harness bar it would be purely aesthetic. If the bolts holding on to the bar breaks or comes loose, then it would be more harm than good, #1 you will fly out of the car (which the stock seatbelt can prevent), #2 you will be flying with a metal bar attached to you
5-point is just a 4-point with crotch part, and 6-point is addition of string that ties helm to the bar right?
Alot of people are tell each other how unsafe a 4 point harness is but if you adjusted the harness properly, have a safe tie down (hooks on to the back seat or on a harness bar), angle of the harness is within recomended specs then, a 4 point harness should be a hell of a lot safer than a 3 point harness, hands down! It comman knowlege, 4 point holds you down alot better than a 3 point harness. Look at all the race cars, they all have 4 point harness, i dont understand how some of you say 4 point harness are unsafe.
If i am wrong, prove it! Show me test results! Dont tell me your stories about your friend.
If i am wrong, prove it! Show me test results! Dont tell me your stories about your friend.
What I said was that a 4-point harness without an Anti Submarine device is a lot less safe than the factory 3-point belts. It may seem to be common sense that more belts are better than less, or that being held tighter is better but that is disregarding the way that a body moves.
In a normal 4-point your body hits the belts evenly and the forces then cause you to slide forward evenly. Your hips then slip down and forward, and you slip out of the harness. In a 3-point or a 4-point with an ASM one shoulder is allowed to move forward slightly, which causes your hips to rotate downward and into the seat. It may not seem so on first blush, but that is the way that it works. There are tons of tests out there showing this, but a nice concise explanation can be found in the ASM section on this page: http://www.schrothracing.com/main/Engineering The section on the 2" lap belt width on that page is also very interesting. When you think it through, the standard 3-point seat belt design is incredibly elegant. Safe and convenient.
As to harness stretch you are simply wrong. Again, while it may seem to be obvious that belts couldn't possibly stretch to twice they're length under stress it is completely wrong. Think how much force is being put on them. If a serious crash on a track can result in over 100 G's of force, let's say that in your Evo you see a momentary force of 50 G's. If you weigh 150lbs you are suddenly hanging nearly four tons from those belts. Do you really think that five foot long belts would only stretch five inches if you hung a four ton load from them? Makes more sense when you think it through, right?
Also, no real race car has a 4-point harness. Show me one that does. Any real race-prepared car will have a six-point harness - maybe a five depending on the class.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
From: Calgary, AB Canada
A harness bar is the safest option for the front passengers - BUT it can not be overstated how important it is to either use the Schroth 4-point with the ASM or a true 5 or 6-point belt no matter what mounting option that you go with. A 4-point without the ASM device is MUCH less safe than the factory 3-point, on the street or the track. Without the ASM or a crotch belt you can very easily "submarine", or slip down below the belts.
Also, if you use a setup as shown above you are relying on the seat being able to withstand the forces of the belts pulling downwards in a crash, and you should only do that if you know that it has been tested. Most factory seats do not pass, even those with harness pass-throughs. For example, the seats in the new STI's do not pass.
Finally - I fail to see the difference in the level of safety or potential crash forces between driving on the street or the track. You want a proper setup that is at least as safe as the factory belts no matter where you are, right? Azn_ghetto - I hate to tell you, but your harness setup might hold you in nicely, but it is less safe than the factory 3-point belts. A lot less.
Also, if you use a setup as shown above you are relying on the seat being able to withstand the forces of the belts pulling downwards in a crash, and you should only do that if you know that it has been tested. Most factory seats do not pass, even those with harness pass-throughs. For example, the seats in the new STI's do not pass.
Finally - I fail to see the difference in the level of safety or potential crash forces between driving on the street or the track. You want a proper setup that is at least as safe as the factory belts no matter where you are, right? Azn_ghetto - I hate to tell you, but your harness setup might hold you in nicely, but it is less safe than the factory 3-point belts. A lot less.
r u assuming that my 4 point is unsafe because of the fact that ur assuming im using factory seats? because howabout aftermarket bucket seats with the proper places to fit in a harness, would it make a difference at all?
ok if u say that it is unsafe how would i make safer then a regular seat belt add a crotch strap and a harness bar?