Car and Driver Lightning lap Test Falsified?
While you can customize, upgrade, and perfect every part of your FWD vehicle, such as your suspension, chasis, etc., you simply cannot beat the laws of physics. I could be wrong, but there is not a single FWD vehicle that oversteers. It's simply not possible. Now that doesn't mean that AWD or RWD is superior. But they sure are a heck of a lot easier to drive. The main point here is that for just about every production vehicle in existence, AWD and RWD are superior to FWD. And an optimally setup AWD vehicle is superior to RWD when setup correctly. AWD has not been perfected yet.
This above statement is not reflected in real world results because of a number of reasons. RWD in the real world is just as good if not better than AWD because of the driver variable and the lack of fine tuning concerning AWD drivetrains. As good as the Evo X's drivetrain is, it's still not perfect by any means. But it's pretty darn good. It must be, considering normal people can clock amazing times on a track without much practice. To me, that says it all. The ease of driving an AWD vehicle reflects the laws of physics. But professionals can drive just as well in a RWD platform. They would drive even better in a perfect AWD setup.
The counter argument will be that a perfectly setup RWD vehicle will be just as good as a perfectly setup AWD vehicle. This just all comes down to more and more variables, but by the law of physics it is optimal for the ability to provide power to all four wheels when necessary.
This above statement is not reflected in real world results because of a number of reasons. RWD in the real world is just as good if not better than AWD because of the driver variable and the lack of fine tuning concerning AWD drivetrains. As good as the Evo X's drivetrain is, it's still not perfect by any means. But it's pretty darn good. It must be, considering normal people can clock amazing times on a track without much practice. To me, that says it all. The ease of driving an AWD vehicle reflects the laws of physics. But professionals can drive just as well in a RWD platform. They would drive even better in a perfect AWD setup.
The counter argument will be that a perfectly setup RWD vehicle will be just as good as a perfectly setup AWD vehicle. This just all comes down to more and more variables, but by the law of physics it is optimal for the ability to provide power to all four wheels when necessary.
Nah man, it's funny. As soon as I saw this thread, I had to post my thoughts. We had a debate in our local Pittsburgh thread about the results of this test last week. And Evo VIII, WRX, X, IX, etc... owners couldn't digest the results of a Cobalt running faster laps than all of the cars it competed against.
I agree that FWD cars simply have to understeer, by their very design it has to happen. I disagree with AWD cars being easier to drive, I still think FWD cars are easier to drive at the limit because they're more intuitive. I would also disagree with a properly setup AWD car being superior to a RWD car, that's only applicable in poor conditions. If the track is dry and it's warm out, a RWD car can be a real pain in the *** to keep up with.
I agree that FWD cars simply have to understeer, by their very design it has to happen. I disagree with AWD cars being easier to drive, I still think FWD cars are easier to drive at the limit because they're more intuitive. I would also disagree with a properly setup AWD car being superior to a RWD car, that's only applicable in poor conditions. If the track is dry and it's warm out, a RWD car can be a real pain in the *** to keep up with.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Santa Monica, California
The individual tests were likely performed at another location. Not all skidpads are created equal. The skidpad at Streets of Willow would throw numbers way off compared to testing at a good skidpad.
The Cobalt is a damn fast car, essentially the equal of a stock Evo around many road courses. The lotus turned 'slow' times because it doesn't have enough power.
The Cobalt is a damn fast car, essentially the equal of a stock Evo around many road courses. The lotus turned 'slow' times because it doesn't have enough power.
I'm curious how many people who have commented on this post have actually read the article or do most people simply go to the specs/results without reading any of the background.
The Lotus turned slow times because the rubber it came equipped with was not of the stickeist variety.
I'm curious how many people who have commented on this post have actually read the article or do most people simply go to the specs/results without reading any of the background.
I'm curious how many people who have commented on this post have actually read the article or do most people simply go to the specs/results without reading any of the background.
SO it is sticky for sure. The SC dont have power?
Certainly more lb vs hp then the SS, or almost any of these test. Excluding the top 5 maybe.
Evolving Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 254
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From: Santa Monica, California
Jesus, are people still debating the results from this test? There is no conspiracy, on that day with those drivers at that track, the Cobalt SS was as fast as the Evo. The results of other tests are irrelevant since either A. the variables were different or B. the tests themselves were completely different. People keep on saying "Oh the WRX was than the SS therefore since the Evo is faster than the STI, the Evo should be faster than the SS" but that's absolutely horrible logic. The WRX vs. SS test was in terms of performance numbers (0-60, 1/4 mile time, etc) and a short (45 second) autocross track. As any racer can tell you, autocross is fundamentally different than road racing thus the results are not comparable.
A friend of mine has a Lotus and an STI and *gasp* the STI is faster than the Lotus at the track. It boils down to how the track is setup. Some tracks naturally favor power over handling while others are the reverse. In this case power was king.
I love how Evo owners are pissed about the SS. It's oddly reminiscent of how Porsche or Corvette owners responded to the Evo.
"How can a 30000$ rice rocket beat my 60000$ Corvette? Obviously the tests are false."
"My 90000$ Porsche is better than a Mitsubishi boy toy, the brakes are better, the engine is better, the chassis is better, it's just a better car all around."
Dear god, get over it. It was inevitable that a car would come around that could challenge the Evo for the cheap. The SS is a very potent car. It has plenty of power, it's suspension was tuned at the Nurburgring, it has brembos (I believe), it comes with flat-foot shifting and launch control built it, it's very much a performance packed vehicle. If you're so uncomfortable with your own vehicle that you can't handle competition, I suggest you sell your car now and save yourself from a lot of sleepless nights. The fact people are suggesting that multiple magazines have thrown away their editorial integrity to champion the SS is laughable at best.
A friend of mine has a Lotus and an STI and *gasp* the STI is faster than the Lotus at the track. It boils down to how the track is setup. Some tracks naturally favor power over handling while others are the reverse. In this case power was king.
I love how Evo owners are pissed about the SS. It's oddly reminiscent of how Porsche or Corvette owners responded to the Evo.
"How can a 30000$ rice rocket beat my 60000$ Corvette? Obviously the tests are false."
"My 90000$ Porsche is better than a Mitsubishi boy toy, the brakes are better, the engine is better, the chassis is better, it's just a better car all around."
Dear god, get over it. It was inevitable that a car would come around that could challenge the Evo for the cheap. The SS is a very potent car. It has plenty of power, it's suspension was tuned at the Nurburgring, it has brembos (I believe), it comes with flat-foot shifting and launch control built it, it's very much a performance packed vehicle. If you're so uncomfortable with your own vehicle that you can't handle competition, I suggest you sell your car now and save yourself from a lot of sleepless nights. The fact people are suggesting that multiple magazines have thrown away their editorial integrity to champion the SS is laughable at best.
Reading is for housewives, school girls, and suckers. I prefer to fire off the hip and get the Cliffs Notes later.
Evolving Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 254
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From: Santa Monica, California
Please google Advertorials, and then tell me that this doesn't happen. USA Today is an Advertorial and that is why some of their ex employees are trying to sue them right now. If big magazine and newspaper companies do it, do you think that c&d wouldn't? Everyone has a price so please try and keep an open mind. If you think that they cannot be bought and are not bias I truly feel sorry for you. You must be so gullible that you have all those all the late night informercial products 
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No matter how fast it goes, it's still a Cobalt.
I'm sorry, but I would feel like such a tool if I drove one. But maybe that's just me
There's no denying it's a fast car, but it's not the same caliber as the Evo, so you can't get hung up on the results of these tests.
I'm sorry, but I would feel like such a tool if I drove one. But maybe that's just me
There's no denying it's a fast car, but it's not the same caliber as the Evo, so you can't get hung up on the results of these tests.
Last edited by macPSU; Oct 22, 2008 at 05:21 PM.