FJF

iTrader: (18)

I find it curious that you chose to toss this back at me, in lieu of attacking the very crux of the argument. As you may recall, fewer inputs cannot offer more control by definition.

migs647

iTrader: (19)

I'd like to hear this as well...

This isn't a motorcycle that slipping the clutch in a corner to keep rpms up and centripetal force.

You control the car with 3 inputs. Steering, brakes, gas. It's all a matter of physics. I'm not sure where you are talking about this clutch deal unless you're talking about launching. Then I get it. But even then, looking at the 2012 GT-R, the computer can be more accurate than human.

Another advantage of the SST over the 5-speed that is often over looked? You can shift in the middle of a corner without losing stability because it shifts so quickly.

FJF

iTrader: (18)

How about something as common as moving slowly in bumper-to-bumper traffic, and controlling one's velocity by modulating the clutch?

Excellent example. It shows the car having control over itself, rather than the driver having control over the car. Sure, a computer can be more accurate, hence, quicker without allowing for as much human input. That's the entire point of this; less input, less control over the car by its pilot. Why this not obvious is beyond me.

Midnighyt

just for the record, I bought my MR for 2 reasons... DC traffic. And my post Military knee pains making it too hard to drive my 6sp SS Camaro everyday clutching in and out.

also... I didn't blame the Subaru owner for the lovely window note. Just stating what was around my car when I left

this car shifts better than I ever could, but for the fun factor of shifting I do miss the old clutch and stick... but I have other cars for that

vleigh6

From the looks of this thread, it wasn't the Subaru owner...

It was a hatrer in a EVO GSR.

Just sayin'...

slim8605

iTrader: (1)

lol agreed.

migs647

iTrader: (19)

Controlling velocity? The clutch is much more expensive to replace than brake pads. That is what brakes are for. Controlling velocity. Which the SST wins in again with left foot braking. Please tell me you aren't slipping the clutch trying to control the rate of the car.

Moving slowly in bumper to bumper traffic, very easy to control in a SST. Remember it has clutches, these clutches engage and disengage according to driving input. You can control this by knowing how to master the inputs. It's just another way of controlling the clutch besides 1 pedal, now you have two.

You really need drive an SST before you make any more judgments imo. The amount of extra control you get over the car by concentrating on left foot braking and keeping both hands on the wheel is much greater than a traditional manual.

FJF

iTrader: (18)

I don't comment on most of your posts out of respect for the current staff structure, like ignoring the bulk of your posts about audio. Please, PLEASE, don't talk to me about driving.


None of this counters the crux of the argument, and so it remains.

mrMTB

iTrader: (13)

I take is that this is the crux of your argument... And it's wrong... (it neither goes without saying nor stands to reason)

Look at it this way: while you are driving your vehicle, you have a maximum amount of attention (what you call control) to spend driving. You have some amount of attention that is paying attention to the conditions outside the vehicle, some amount that is paying attention to acceleration, some amount to direction of travel and steering, some other to braking, and if you are manually shifting another portion that goes to that. If you have to move your left foot to the clutch and hand over to the shifter, you are then going to be unable to spend that attention on the other elements of vehicle control.

Even if we were to work from the assumption that the above was not the case, the only time that there would be a difference between the "control" that the driver of the M/T and SST based cars are when you are shifting; anytime you have two hands on the wheel and are between shifts, they are the same, and the moment you move your hands from the wheel to engage the shifter, you are taking attention and control away from steering (and possibly braking) in order to clutch and shift. (In which case your argument still falls down.) And, frankly, the SST shifts better than most mortal persons on the planet are capable of shifting.

All of the above said, yes, there is a difference in driving experience. There are times when I miss the 6 speed from my VIII, but it is when I'm on a leisurely drive on a Sunday afternoon with the car club. When I'm at the track and really want to put the spurs to the car, the SST allows me to focus on steering, braking, and throttle inputs to a level that I couldn't come close to in the VIII.

FJF

iTrader: (18)

The critical assumption, per the argument above, is that one is expanding his max attention rate during the drive. That's certainly true in a competitive situation. Outside of that, not so much. The former was stipulated earlier in the discussion and the latter is, well, rather obvious.

If one defines control as always having both hands on the wheel, there's nothing to debate. <grin>

Guys, this isn't a manual vs automatic debate. A claim was made that simply can't be due to the nature of the beast. Either the individual miss-wrote, or meant something else. Clearly, he's not a stupid man. Now we have automatic owners coming in, seemingly, to defend their transmissions, when there's really nothing to defend against. So an auto doesn't offer the same degree of control as a manual? That's just how it is, like water being wet and a flame feeling hot to the touch. You can't debate away the physical reality of the situation. Sheesh!

mrMTB

iTrader: (13)

QQ FJF, have you driven an SST-equipped Evo?

migs647

iTrader: (19)

I don't see what my posts about audio have anything to do with this topic.

When you are making false assumptions about the car, you will be called out. Whether it's by me, or another person. I've been around the track my whole life (in multiple auto sports), and never once heard of someone use a clutch to "regulate velocity". So I will question it. I, just like anyone else on this thread, have the privilege of replying to someone.

I really need to question why you are even in this thread, derailing it, when you don't have any experience with the SST. This isn't another debate thread. This is a thread on someone vandalizing a car. Don't like it, leave.

FJF

iTrader: (18)

It makes no difference. It's not like the constraints can change.

mrMTB

iTrader: (13)

Wrong again. If you've not driven an SST then you, by definition, have no idea what you're talking about when you say you loose XYZ.

FJF

iTrader: (18)

<grin> Don't temp me.

Err...I wasn't the one who made a claim, but I presented an argument that has yet to be met. It was based on a post made in this thread, and buttressed by yourself. As of yet, nothing has changed this condition. No matter how much you say the opposite, physical reality cannot be shifted. Your references to being on the track, whatever that means, and my example relating to bumper-to-bumper traffic only serve to underscore the lunacy at hand. Truth be told, I respect mrMTB for uploading an honest, well-worded argument. He's a man I'd have a drink with. OTOH, dishonest tactics, like some of what we've seen, point to a completely opposite conclusion.

Wait, is this a threat to cite me for taking this thread off-topic, with a page and a half of non-Vaseline comments before mine? Nice. I'm familiar with this approach and would expect nothing less. Ironically, this topic stayed dormant until you chimed in. This is the post that took this thread off-topic. Unsubscribing.

I have driven one. It makes no difference, as explained earlier.