I disagree. It's about delivery, not content.

 

+10

 

The tuner shootout is a road course event, not drag, so its more about the car as a whole and the driver. That said, yes they will probably push the cars to the brink of destruction just to pull out a slightly faster lap time. But thats fun to watch too..hehe

 

No. I have met both.

 

i have to disagree with you on this one ez. in all honesty, we get about 10 reported posts a day from vendors asking us to remove posts that they feel bashing their products. out of those 10, we remove maybe 1 that we feel that the vednor crossed the line. there is a big difference between saying "i think that this part is _______ (wrong, useless, does not fit right etc..)" and saying " this vendor sucks" or saying "of course your car is slow, you let x tune it".

ez, you were here for awhile and i have talkd to you many many times so you know who i am and where i stand. i am sure that you can admit to the fact that we have been more than fair with this crap for the past 3 years. we have given all the vendors every chance we could to have tecchnical debates and time after time, everything turns bad. altough i agree that each vendor is different and some are more abbrasive than others, imho, all of them are guilty of destroying these forums. each one of them broke the rules on more than one instance and non of them is the "poor victim".

the only people that i view as more responsible than the vendors are the fan boys. i have seen so many good threads EXPLODE just because one of the fan boys decided to crash the party and start crap. we have tried our best to request time after time to cool it and simply stay away from each other's way but it did not work. just do what i did last night and the truth will come to you:

run a search on all the fan boys names and you will see how many closed threads they were a part on and how many threads got closed because of on of them.

another problem that i have with this entire situation is the way i look at vendors. i am a vendor and all my friends are vendors. in my own opinion, a vendor or tuner is a person that should help, teach, guide his customers and in our case, all the members of the forum. when you join a forum and you see the big names like Shiv, Dave Buschur, Martin, Sean Ivy etc.. its like being surrounded by NBA players (not to the extend but they are all celebrities in the import game). people will automatically try to impress, imulate and become part of that specific vendor. now, let's say i have been a ffan of imports for years and finally bought my evo. i join this forum so i can meet nw people and get some info. i notice that tuner x is here and i have read about him, seen his cars etc.. now obviously i will try to get in contact with him and browse his forum etc.. IF i see this vendor using name calling, bashinng flaming whatever, don't you think that the avarage newbie will think that this is the way things are done around here.????

instead of what they are supposed to do, some of our vendors actually set the worse example to our new members which in turns lead to more trouble because those members will continue the flames.

i have more to say but this is long winded as is, YOU BETTER READ THIS EZ!!!

 

Cloud??? Lol.. heck no.

If you're trying to find a Vishnu Warrtalon equivalent it's gunna be tough. The fastest, most talented drivers with Vishnu tuning just don't post here all that often. Vishnu_Evo8, Chronohunter, lots of others....

 

Ahem....you meant "ez76" I'm the real ez

 

yess i meant ez76, i don't know you yet j/k of course...

 

hehe...it's no prob, I only said something b/c people often don't read all the posts and might get the wrong idea

BTW - I'm very glad to see this effort to clean things up a bit

 

I dont think Warrtalon is a fanboy at all. He is just tells it how it is from what Ive seen. I consider the "fanboys" the guys that go into Dynoflash forums and start trouble no matter whose fanboys there are. Maybe its not Cloud, I might be thinking of someone else, but I do remember a thread back with a bunch Vishnu guys attacking Al in his forums over something completely retarded. Warrtalon is part of the Dynoflash/BR camp but I havent seen him attack any vendors for illegitimate reasons like I have seen from some other people, namely Vishnu and PDT guys.

Dynoflash does my tuning and thats it. I dont care if hes a nice guy really, as long as my car is fast and reliable, and it is. My opinion of him decreased dramatically after reading those posts he made, however, it seems like there are guys that are just out there to get him for some reason, why I dont know. Its seriously all a bunch of non-sense.

All things aside, I dont think Vishnu should have been banned. I read the first 100 posts or so (none from BR, only Dynoflash and Vishnu) and the only thing I saw him say was "this thread is gonna start trouble" and it seemed he wanted no part of the drama. Al should have been banned rightfully so for acting incredibly unprofessional (and like a jackass).

 

++++++ Infinty
Im on this site everyday....at home, at work, even at school Mon - Mon and the only reason theres a newbie by my name is that Ive notice that the best way to get info is not by posting; It's by taking the time and search. But lately Its impossible to get any good info from here unless you scroll through countless threads.
Everything that is quoted above is the reason that this site is heading the way it is.

Ohh and but Im a Webmaster and I know how hard it is to build a site with this quality. It just sucks to see someone's well thoughts and hard time into creating this, to go down the drain for immaturity

 

I think vendor conduct should be held at a higher standard than other evom members and fanboys. Their opinions often have more weight than the average evom member because they are looked at as experts. People pay attention when David, Al, and Shiv post. And saying that you're "just a hothead" is to me, no excuse for slandering another company.

 

I concede that because of time constraints I don't visit here as much as I used to so I probably don't see the 9 out of 10 threads that you say stick around despite containing vendor criticism of other vendors' products.

Here is why I think it's so important to let vendors speak out, no matter how messy it gets.

As I see it, because they have the expertise and resources (dynos, instruments, customer cars being tuned, etc.), often times vendors are simply in the best position to evaluate the quality of other vendors' products, even if the analysis is flawed. I disagree with the universal assumption of competitor dishonesty - straight dishonesty just doesn't serve long-term business interests and it's too easy to get called on it because results are either repeatable or not and eventually the truth will out. It's rare to see outright lies.

What you do often see is omission of key facts or unscientific analysis, but that's where technical discussion comes in and potential customers (and vendors) can ask questions, to get to the bottom of what really happened.

In the midst of this there will always be emotional responses. That's unfortunate, but you can't silence the messenger because the desired technical discussion doesn't come, or because some vendors (and users) don't ask questions, they just get defensive, throw out insults, and imply dishonesty or bias - the easiest cop-outs in the world.

But when discussion gets limited artificially because a thread is just too high-maintenance (because of aforementioned reckless vendors/users), serious value is lost.

And banning by association (which really seems to be what happened here), well I apologize but that's the ultimate cop-out. That just tells me there are not enough moderators in rotation to deal with out-of-control threads, or that you need to incorporate user/thread ratings onto the site and let the community help decide who and what people and threads are worth listening to/reading.

Yes and I see it is getting tiresome (understandably) - see my above suggestion.

I disagree that it destroys the forums. If you precipitate out the crap, the so-called drama threads make for some of the most informative threads, in both the parts and people senses. You learn who you're dealing with and what they're dealing you.

We're talking about vendors though. I don't think it's fair to blame vendors for fanboy actions, if this has contributed to the banning.

Yes, you have to fix the broken windows, again this calls for more staff or some other kind of community involvement in moderation.

Some, not all. Again, it's the guilt by association I take issue with.

I know moderator patience is all but eroded, there need to be more of you!

 

ez, what banning by association are you talking about here if you don't me knowing?

and i do think that the vendors should be held accountable for their fan boys actions if they encourage them or don't help us stop them.

also, i have to disagree with you about the fact that these stupid vendor warrs not destroying our forums. i don't think you understand how many complaints we get each day from members that are sick and tired of watching every single thread go to the drain. it is not like the vendors are actually having a technical debate, they are acting like little school girls with things like "you have no idea how to toone" "how many engines did you blow this week" or even "you are a liar and i am better than you". it is all a big joke in my opinion and i am actually shocked that they still get any business. i wouldn't let any of them come near my car not because they can't tune but because they are acting like kids. i would much rather go to a tuner who doens't give a crap about this drama and just let his work speak. we do have a few of those here and it is a JOY to watch them do their thing...

 

With the wording you used in this post, "little school girls" and "retarded kids", in my opinion you are no better. You should be leading by example, and this is a poor one.