Effects of E-85
Tuning for E85 is alot like tuning for race gas, at least you can tune fairly aggressively due to its higher octane. I would still tune the car fairly conservatively for daily driving though.
Lot's of good info in this nasioc thread.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
I wish I had e85 available locally...
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
I wish I had e85 available locally...
I have heard of fox body mustangs switching to e85 and making insane power. The only thing the OP of the mustang post recommended was a walbro 255lph pump and to r/r the fuel filter after the first 1000 miles. It will basically strip the inside of the fuel tank clean, and all of that varnish ends up in the fuel filter. The WRX dude did it on his car and didnt have to change any seals. They said since our gas has 10% or so ethanol in it, that it didnt matter, as all of the seals have to be "ok" for ethanol based fuels.
A buddy of mine is opening up a shop and we are going to build a high boost E85 car and see how it does.
A buddy of mine is opening up a shop and we are going to build a high boost E85 car and see how it does.
The only thing I dont understand about ethanol, is the new standards they put in place where regular gas is now mixed with 10% ethanol. Do they take say 89 octane gas for example and mix it with ethanol to get the 93 we use.. or is different? Is there anyway a lightly modded evo can take a slight advantage from the ethanol, besides the fact of it burning cooler?
On the subject of emmisions and E-85. You need an E-85 specific catalytic converter to have clean emmisions with E-85. Since the Alcohol blend burns cooler than pure gasoline your exhaust temps are significantly lower (yes, this WILL affect spool up on a turbo) so with a conventional catalytic converter the catalytic efficiancy is much lower as well as light off time for the cat being much slower.
Due to the emissions issues, it is illegal to convert over to E-85. For most people here, that means treat it just like running without a cat, it is illegal and carrys a huge fine..... but you are very unlikely to be caught. Do at your own risk!
Keith
Due to the emissions issues, it is illegal to convert over to E-85. For most people here, that means treat it just like running without a cat, it is illegal and carrys a huge fine..... but you are very unlikely to be caught. Do at your own risk!
Keith
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From: Louisville, KY
Currently in Houston almost all gas stations have fuel with 15% ethanol, a recent requirement. Can someone comment on the effects of this gas mixture on our cars? What are the effects on a custom tune, a car tuned for 0% ethanol? If a car is custom tuned for 15% ethanol, what will be the effect if that car if the car fills with 0% ethanol gas on an out of town trip?
damn i have a e-85 gas staion right by my house to and i my 99 caravan was e85 ready butthe thing with that is that you get full tourqe and hp with 3/4 throttle any more does worse on performance....gas milage same no diff..
Originally Posted by kam
Can someone please comment on my question? I would really like to know.
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From: ATL
I think you guys should read this:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
Also E85 has been used in the DSM community for some time.
While the computer will show lean conditions, due to the added octane from E85 you should see no knock. So in other words, more power.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
Also E85 has been used in the DSM community for some time.
While the computer will show lean conditions, due to the added octane from E85 you should see no knock. So in other words, more power.
Other than the fact that stoich, rich max power, and lean max power, etc. are different than the previous Gasoline with MTBE...
Originally Posted by machron1
The octane on the pump is the octane you get, so it should be the same tuning.
BTW, here is an informative post from Kevin in response on another forum...
Originally Posted by KevinD
dude, holy one sided argument.
Ethanol is GOOD!!! and yes i may be a liberal tree hugging hippy, but even from a automotive engineers perspective, Ethanol is badass.
here are a few things to point out.
ethanol does have a different stoichiometric ratio then that of gasoline. pure ethanol is 9:1, while gasoline is 14.7:1 the reason for this is the alcohol fuel is considered an oxygenated fuel (it contains oxygen), and as such, requires less oxygen in the air to burn. ethanol mixtures with gasoline move the stoic ratio pretty linearly, so 85% ethanol 15 % gas is 9.8:1 ratio, and 90%gasoline 10% ethanol will be in the neighborhood of 14.2:1. so yes, it will effect your gas mileage... and looking at it strictly from a a/f ratio perspective you will see a decrease in mileage by about 5% tops. again, this is due to the oxygen in the ethanol fuel being used rather then air sucked through your intake. the energy density of the Ethanol is not as high as gasoline, but the increase in fuel required makes up for the lower energy density.
look at it this way, your engine has a bore and a stroke, thus every revolution it will suck in X amount of air/fuel mixture. lets say you use 100% ethanol. you need a 9:1 ratio, and because your engine is going to suck in, say 2.0L of air Natural aspirated every two revolutions, the fuel will be added takes up only a small percent of that volume because it is still largely in a "liquid" form (although the level of atomization, location of injectors, temp of fuel, temp of air all take effect in this). so you see, we are still able to get considerably more fuel in the cylinder to burn dispite the fact that it has less energy then gasoline when it burns. it essentially balances out
now here is where the benefits come in play, especially for a turbo car. turbo cars heat the air significately through adiabatic compression (and more so do to inefficient adiabatic compression). as an example lets say you run a pressure ratio of 2 (or about 14.7 psig boost pressure). your air coming out of the turbo is going to be about 100 deg F hotter. assuming a perfectly efficient turbo. the intercooler (assuming you have one) will take a significant amount of temperature out of this, but it can never take it all out. therefor you have hot air going into your engine. the hotter the air, the more prone to knock you are. the ethanol has a much higher latent heat of vaporization then gasoline when you take into account the increase in fuel required. and as such the fuel when it vaporizes can actually bring the air temps below ambient. something gasoline WITH an intercooler can never do. what does this mean? well it means you can run more BOOST!!!! you can increase the boost (Which increases temps), but the fuel itself decreases the temps. as an example, our race car has a compression ratio of 11.5:1. we run on top of that 10psig of boost, with NO intercooler. we use E85 fuel. this would be impossible with gasoline as you would detonate immediately.
if there were E85 pumps redily availible in my area, i would convert my evo over immediately. as it would be like using a alky injection kit as your primary fuel
some of the things mentioned are correct about ethanol though, it is corrosive to certain materials. however, it will not damage you MAF sensor because fuel doesn't go through that sensor. automobile manufactures are smart enough to know that in certain places they already run ethanol in your fuel (in michigan we had ethanol in our gas IIRC). and they will have planned accordingly. you will not have catastrophic engine failure because they are adding corn alcohol to your gas.
we should be begging for more ethanol in our fuel, if not for the increase in boost, but certainly to reduce our demand from middle eastern oil, decrease in the amount of harmful oil rigs, and well drilling going on around the world, and to extend the already dwindling life of the internal combustion engine.
whoever wrote that letter definiately has an agenda.
Ethanol is GOOD!!! and yes i may be a liberal tree hugging hippy, but even from a automotive engineers perspective, Ethanol is badass.
here are a few things to point out.
ethanol does have a different stoichiometric ratio then that of gasoline. pure ethanol is 9:1, while gasoline is 14.7:1 the reason for this is the alcohol fuel is considered an oxygenated fuel (it contains oxygen), and as such, requires less oxygen in the air to burn. ethanol mixtures with gasoline move the stoic ratio pretty linearly, so 85% ethanol 15 % gas is 9.8:1 ratio, and 90%gasoline 10% ethanol will be in the neighborhood of 14.2:1. so yes, it will effect your gas mileage... and looking at it strictly from a a/f ratio perspective you will see a decrease in mileage by about 5% tops. again, this is due to the oxygen in the ethanol fuel being used rather then air sucked through your intake. the energy density of the Ethanol is not as high as gasoline, but the increase in fuel required makes up for the lower energy density.
look at it this way, your engine has a bore and a stroke, thus every revolution it will suck in X amount of air/fuel mixture. lets say you use 100% ethanol. you need a 9:1 ratio, and because your engine is going to suck in, say 2.0L of air Natural aspirated every two revolutions, the fuel will be added takes up only a small percent of that volume because it is still largely in a "liquid" form (although the level of atomization, location of injectors, temp of fuel, temp of air all take effect in this). so you see, we are still able to get considerably more fuel in the cylinder to burn dispite the fact that it has less energy then gasoline when it burns. it essentially balances out
now here is where the benefits come in play, especially for a turbo car. turbo cars heat the air significately through adiabatic compression (and more so do to inefficient adiabatic compression). as an example lets say you run a pressure ratio of 2 (or about 14.7 psig boost pressure). your air coming out of the turbo is going to be about 100 deg F hotter. assuming a perfectly efficient turbo. the intercooler (assuming you have one) will take a significant amount of temperature out of this, but it can never take it all out. therefor you have hot air going into your engine. the hotter the air, the more prone to knock you are. the ethanol has a much higher latent heat of vaporization then gasoline when you take into account the increase in fuel required. and as such the fuel when it vaporizes can actually bring the air temps below ambient. something gasoline WITH an intercooler can never do. what does this mean? well it means you can run more BOOST!!!! you can increase the boost (Which increases temps), but the fuel itself decreases the temps. as an example, our race car has a compression ratio of 11.5:1. we run on top of that 10psig of boost, with NO intercooler. we use E85 fuel. this would be impossible with gasoline as you would detonate immediately.
if there were E85 pumps redily availible in my area, i would convert my evo over immediately. as it would be like using a alky injection kit as your primary fuel
some of the things mentioned are correct about ethanol though, it is corrosive to certain materials. however, it will not damage you MAF sensor because fuel doesn't go through that sensor. automobile manufactures are smart enough to know that in certain places they already run ethanol in your fuel (in michigan we had ethanol in our gas IIRC). and they will have planned accordingly. you will not have catastrophic engine failure because they are adding corn alcohol to your gas.
we should be begging for more ethanol in our fuel, if not for the increase in boost, but certainly to reduce our demand from middle eastern oil, decrease in the amount of harmful oil rigs, and well drilling going on around the world, and to extend the already dwindling life of the internal combustion engine.
whoever wrote that letter definiately has an agenda.