Is UTEC really all that limiting?
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From: Snellville, GA
Is UTEC really all that limiting?
Hey guys. I have been reading both the AEM and the UTEC boards for a while now just doing research. I was trying to decide what tuning course I wanted to take. Now let me FIRST say this is NOT an EMS vs UTEC question. I have done WELL more then enough research to have decided that.
My question is this: Is a UTEC setup REALLY much more limiting than an EMS setup?
Here is the thing, I have no problem tuning. I know how and I find it fun. However, in the same token I know that I do not want to have to retune once every 2 weeks. I want to be able to just tune when I add a new Mod or just feel like it. Obviously because of this one single thing, the UTEC is the course of action for me. I am also not asking is the EMS a better at making power then a UTEC. I realize that they are not that far apart in terms of power in the hands of a capable tuner. I personally am not at the level of tuning necessary to extract every drop of power from the UTEC now, but I plan to get there through practice. The thing is, in both the UTEC board and the EMS board I have continually read that the UTEC is a very limiting device. It works perfectly for your timid tuner or people who are just going to do basic mods. But for those wanting to make real power, its not a correct choice. Obviously this means that if you want a 650WHP track car then you need to go with an AMS setup. But how about if you want a 500-600WHP Street Car? Take me for example. I am not really a big track guy, but I definitely am interested in speed and power. Also I would definitely be doing serious mods to my EVO. However, all of my setup would be tuned and purchased to make the best possible street machine. Ideally I would want a 500-600WHP EVO that I could daily drive. With that goal in mind do you think the UTEC would be a limiting factor? I know one of the biggest things with the UTEC is injector size and turbo size. It just does not do well with the monsters. However, obviously for a street setup I would not get a GT35R. It would spool entirely to slowly. So I would not have the massive turbo size. Also I would probably try and stop at 780cc injectors since I think that should be enough to get me to my goal with SS lines and a fuel rail.
Oh well, long story short: With a 500-600WHP daily driver in mind, would UTEC be too limiting of a device?
Thanks a lot for all the help guys.
-Sayajin
My question is this: Is a UTEC setup REALLY much more limiting than an EMS setup?
Here is the thing, I have no problem tuning. I know how and I find it fun. However, in the same token I know that I do not want to have to retune once every 2 weeks. I want to be able to just tune when I add a new Mod or just feel like it. Obviously because of this one single thing, the UTEC is the course of action for me. I am also not asking is the EMS a better at making power then a UTEC. I realize that they are not that far apart in terms of power in the hands of a capable tuner. I personally am not at the level of tuning necessary to extract every drop of power from the UTEC now, but I plan to get there through practice. The thing is, in both the UTEC board and the EMS board I have continually read that the UTEC is a very limiting device. It works perfectly for your timid tuner or people who are just going to do basic mods. But for those wanting to make real power, its not a correct choice. Obviously this means that if you want a 650WHP track car then you need to go with an AMS setup. But how about if you want a 500-600WHP Street Car? Take me for example. I am not really a big track guy, but I definitely am interested in speed and power. Also I would definitely be doing serious mods to my EVO. However, all of my setup would be tuned and purchased to make the best possible street machine. Ideally I would want a 500-600WHP EVO that I could daily drive. With that goal in mind do you think the UTEC would be a limiting factor? I know one of the biggest things with the UTEC is injector size and turbo size. It just does not do well with the monsters. However, obviously for a street setup I would not get a GT35R. It would spool entirely to slowly. So I would not have the massive turbo size. Also I would probably try and stop at 780cc injectors since I think that should be enough to get me to my goal with SS lines and a fuel rail.
Oh well, long story short: With a 500-600WHP daily driver in mind, would UTEC be too limiting of a device?
Thanks a lot for all the help guys.
-Sayajin
Last edited by Sayajin; Sep 3, 2005 at 07:09 PM.
Originally Posted by Sayajin
Hey guys. I have been reading both the AEM and the UTEC boards for a while now just doing research. I was trying to decide what tuning course I wanted to take. Now let me FIRST say this is NOT an EMS vs UTEC question. I have done WELL more then enough research to have decided that.
My question is this: Is a UTEC setup REALLY much more limiting than an EMS setup?
Here is the thing, I have no problem tuning. I know how and I find it fun. However, in the same token I know that I do not want to have to retune once every 2 weeks. I want to be able to just tune when I add a new Mod or just feel like it. Obviously because of this one single thing, the UTEC is the course of action for me. I am also not asking is the EMS a better at making power then a UTEC. I realize that they are not that far apart in terms of power in the hands of a capable tuner. I personally am not at the level of tuning necessary to extract every drop of power from the UTEC now, but I plan to get there through practice. The thing is, in both the UTEC board and the EMS board I have continually read that the UTEC is a very limiting device. It works perfectly for your timid tuner or people who are just going to do basic mods. But for those wanting to make real power, its not a correct choice. Obviously this means that if you want a 650WHP track car then you need to go with an AMS setup. But how about if you want a 500-600WHP Street Car? Take me for example. I am not really a big track guy, but I definitely am interested in speed and power. Also I would definitely be doing serious mods to my EVO. However, all of my setup would be tuned and purchased to make the best possible street machine. Ideally I would want a 500-600WHP EVO that I could daily drive. With that goal in mind do you think the UTEC would be a limiting factor? I know one of the biggest things with the UTEC is injector size and turbo size. It just does not do well with the monsters. However, obviously for a street setup I would not get a GT35R. It would spool entirely to slowly. So I would not have the massive turbo size. Also I would probably try and stop at 780cc injectors since I think that should be enough to get me to my goal with SS lines and a fuel rail.
Oh well, long story short: With a 500-600WHP daily driver in mind, would UTEC be too limiting of a device?
Thanks a lot for all the help guys.
-Sayajin
My question is this: Is a UTEC setup REALLY much more limiting than an EMS setup?
Here is the thing, I have no problem tuning. I know how and I find it fun. However, in the same token I know that I do not want to have to retune once every 2 weeks. I want to be able to just tune when I add a new Mod or just feel like it. Obviously because of this one single thing, the UTEC is the course of action for me. I am also not asking is the EMS a better at making power then a UTEC. I realize that they are not that far apart in terms of power in the hands of a capable tuner. I personally am not at the level of tuning necessary to extract every drop of power from the UTEC now, but I plan to get there through practice. The thing is, in both the UTEC board and the EMS board I have continually read that the UTEC is a very limiting device. It works perfectly for your timid tuner or people who are just going to do basic mods. But for those wanting to make real power, its not a correct choice. Obviously this means that if you want a 650WHP track car then you need to go with an AMS setup. But how about if you want a 500-600WHP Street Car? Take me for example. I am not really a big track guy, but I definitely am interested in speed and power. Also I would definitely be doing serious mods to my EVO. However, all of my setup would be tuned and purchased to make the best possible street machine. Ideally I would want a 500-600WHP EVO that I could daily drive. With that goal in mind do you think the UTEC would be a limiting factor? I know one of the biggest things with the UTEC is injector size and turbo size. It just does not do well with the monsters. However, obviously for a street setup I would not get a GT35R. It would spool entirely to slowly. So I would not have the massive turbo size. Also I would probably try and stop at 780cc injectors since I think that should be enough to get me to my goal with SS lines and a fuel rail.
Oh well, long story short: With a 500-600WHP daily driver in mind, would UTEC be too limiting of a device?
Thanks a lot for all the help guys.
-Sayajin
Problem with big turbo setups you cannot use the stock maf. People use AEM because they eliminate the maf and use a map sensor. I think UTEC may include that feature soon tho. Constantly having to retune your setup depends on how aggressive you tune. If you are running on the boarder line of generating knock, you will have retune for weather changes, altitude, etc.... The good thing is with the map selector you can switch maps easily. Its always good to have a nice safe map for your for daily driving then go with a aggressive map at the track. I have not used AEM but i love the third party software that is availible for UTEC . UCC and MPS UTEClogger make things so much easier. Here are some links that may help you if you decide to go with UTEC.
Ultimate Racing Blow Through MAF
http://www.z1auto.com/prodmore.asp?m...ne&prodid=1318
MPS_UTEClogger 2.3
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=152099
http://mpsav.com/MPSUTECLogger/MPS_U...r_Download.htm
UTEC Control Center (UCC)
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...&highlight=ucc
http://norcalevo.net/ucc/ucc-current.zip
Someone needs to make a faq stickied on the this forum. Allot of good information get lost
Last edited by joeymia; Sep 3, 2005 at 10:08 PM.
I don't find the UTEC limiting at all.. I think the limits we experience are more a factor of figuring out ways of working around the limitations of the Stock sensors or ECU.
I've posted way too much over the past few years to really go into too much detail. But I firmly believe that the power to be made is in the hands of the tuner, not the engine management.
In my opinion, the EMS has only two advantages at the moment, which I personally don't find one to be an advantage, Speed density, and idle control features.. Idle control is pretty important, but I am fairly certain we'll see some of these things making it into the UTEC.
I've posted way too much over the past few years to really go into too much detail. But I firmly believe that the power to be made is in the hands of the tuner, not the engine management.
In my opinion, the EMS has only two advantages at the moment, which I personally don't find one to be an advantage, Speed density, and idle control features.. Idle control is pretty important, but I am fairly certain we'll see some of these things making it into the UTEC.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Snellville, GA
Ahh just the man I was hopeing would answer. Thanks a lot for the info Jack. I was pretty sure that would be the answer but I just wanted to be sure. I know personally I would REALLY prefer the UTEC over anything else.
So in your opinion, as long as I can overcome the stock MAF (blow thru setup
), making a 500-600WHP daily driven street machine shouldnt be too much for the UTEC to handle in the hands of a competent tuner? Thx.
-Sayajin
So in your opinion, as long as I can overcome the stock MAF (blow thru setup
), making a 500-600WHP daily driven street machine shouldnt be too much for the UTEC to handle in the hands of a competent tuner? Thx.-Sayajin
Someone please explain to me how a Piggyback is NOT limiting.
MAF scaling is impossible.
Injector scaling is impossible.
Not trying to start an argument. Just want to go over facts once and for all.
Anyone in?
There are alot of advantages to a fully programmable EMS. Whatever the sort.
For light mods I can see someone budget oriented going with a Piggyback style unit for ease.
My 2 cents
MAF scaling is impossible.
Injector scaling is impossible.
Not trying to start an argument. Just want to go over facts once and for all.
Anyone in?
There are alot of advantages to a fully programmable EMS. Whatever the sort.
For light mods I can see someone budget oriented going with a Piggyback style unit for ease.
My 2 cents
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Snellville, GA
Humm... guess I spoke to soon. I will wait for some more input so that I can make a competent decision. Quick question Precision, I suppose my main concerns about the EMS are this:
1. The AMS EMS REALLY needs to be tuned by a professional tuner or shop. Of course it CAN be tuned by a regular competent tuner, just not well.
2. The AMS EMS has to be constantly tuned and retuned. Not only when you change mods, but almost once every 2-3 weeks.
Those are the things that I am most worried about, because that is what I keep on reading. Are these things true or are they over exaggerated(sp). Or would they be untrue in the hands of a semi-competent tuner? Someone who would have the time and patience to learn how to properly tune it? Thx a lot.
-Sayajin
1. The AMS EMS REALLY needs to be tuned by a professional tuner or shop. Of course it CAN be tuned by a regular competent tuner, just not well.
2. The AMS EMS has to be constantly tuned and retuned. Not only when you change mods, but almost once every 2-3 weeks.
Those are the things that I am most worried about, because that is what I keep on reading. Are these things true or are they over exaggerated(sp). Or would they be untrue in the hands of a semi-competent tuner? Someone who would have the time and patience to learn how to properly tune it? Thx a lot.
-Sayajin
Originally Posted by Sayajin
Humm... guess I spoke to soon. I will wait for some more input so that I can make a competent decision. Quick question Precision, I suppose my main concerns about the EMS are this:
1. The AMS EMS REALLY needs to be tuned by a professional tuner or shop. Of course it CAN be tuned by a regular competent tuner, just not well.
2. The AMS EMS has to be constantly tuned and retuned. Not only when you change mods, but almost once every 2-3 weeks.
Those are the things that I am most worried about, because that is what I keep on reading. Are these things true or are they over exaggerated(sp). Or would they be untrue in the hands of a semi-competent tuner? Someone who would have the time and patience to learn how to properly tune it? Thx a lot.
-Sayajin
1. The AMS EMS REALLY needs to be tuned by a professional tuner or shop. Of course it CAN be tuned by a regular competent tuner, just not well.
2. The AMS EMS has to be constantly tuned and retuned. Not only when you change mods, but almost once every 2-3 weeks.
Those are the things that I am most worried about, because that is what I keep on reading. Are these things true or are they over exaggerated(sp). Or would they be untrue in the hands of a semi-competent tuner? Someone who would have the time and patience to learn how to properly tune it? Thx a lot.
-Sayajin
I am just sick of some people knocking particular EMS setups without understanding the variables in which you are working in.
Similar to a stock ECU being lied to to increase or decrease end fuel.
1. The AEM needs to be tuned by an Individual who is very familiar with the AEM software. Secondly it needs to be tuned by an individual who understands engine and EFI thoery in full. Capable of using a wideband O2 sensor. KNOWS the vehicle in which he/she is tuning. Understands that just because a vehicle will start and run good at WOT does not mean that the vehicle is done being tuned. It takes engineers years sometimes to fully tune a car from start to finish. BUT THEY have more people to answer to. They have to make sure it passses CARB and at least 36,000 miles of abuse for warantee issues. and so on. TOO much stuff to list right now.
Anyway it needs to be tuned by someone who can efficiently understand how an EMS works and how it calculates its end functions thru the fuel injectors, coils, IAC, Etc...
What is strange about all I have written so far is the same person needed to effectively tune any Engine Management system including a piggyback.
( iknow some will say BS because they can fiddle with an AFC, But whatever to each their own)
2.If the vehicle is tuned right the first time then only slight changes may be needed for cold start in the colder months if that applies to your applications or climate.
I can of course only speak for myself, but we make sure that EVERY table in the EMS is tuned for. PERIOD. The various compensation tables in the AEM are there for a reason. They are very similar to stock units in many ways. WHY would the end user not need them. So if you want a car tuned properly take it to someone that will spend some quality time with it.
I guarantee you will see a BIG difference between a car tuned with a fully programable system over a ANY piggyback on the market....
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In my opinion you are limited more by EMS then the UTEC. Mostly due to the fact that you lose all your stock diagnostic abilities and stock ECU control the Mitsubishi has spent a ton of money on getting tuned right. At the end of the day the UTEC isnt a prefect fit either though for reasons that have already been brought up. Although it does handle Scaling fairly well but getting larger injectors to work in the vehicle is a bit tough since the idle control is not good and large injectors have very poor sub 1% DC performance.
The ultimate solution would be neither of these products. What we need is something similar to the HP Tuner software for the GM cars. Then we will be able to control and reflash the stock ECU on the fly instead of needing to piggy back in or replace. ECUTek now has something working with the EVO that allows you to change any of the settings in the Stock ECU. This is a huge advantage over everything! The problem is right now they are unable to log anything from the Evo due to the slow OBD-II protocols used on the Evo.
I have had the UTEC for 2 years now and, although I am pretty happy with it, I am still disappointed at the same time. There have been many occasions when I am sitting at the track and seeing guys that spent half the money I did kicking my **** with simple re-flash tunes that they never have to mess with and provide true safe performance with variable control for all earthly conditions. Going to where your heading for WHP though I am uncertain that the UTEC is the solution for you. An EMS will offer much easier control of the bigger turbo and scaling features but you will still need to spend a lot of time fixing cold start issues. These can become a real issue if you live in an area that has sudden cold snaps. And dont let any tuner tell you that this wont be a problem because the facts are that he/she can not guarantee anything until the car exists in that situation.
Good Luck!
The ultimate solution would be neither of these products. What we need is something similar to the HP Tuner software for the GM cars. Then we will be able to control and reflash the stock ECU on the fly instead of needing to piggy back in or replace. ECUTek now has something working with the EVO that allows you to change any of the settings in the Stock ECU. This is a huge advantage over everything! The problem is right now they are unable to log anything from the Evo due to the slow OBD-II protocols used on the Evo.
I have had the UTEC for 2 years now and, although I am pretty happy with it, I am still disappointed at the same time. There have been many occasions when I am sitting at the track and seeing guys that spent half the money I did kicking my **** with simple re-flash tunes that they never have to mess with and provide true safe performance with variable control for all earthly conditions. Going to where your heading for WHP though I am uncertain that the UTEC is the solution for you. An EMS will offer much easier control of the bigger turbo and scaling features but you will still need to spend a lot of time fixing cold start issues. These can become a real issue if you live in an area that has sudden cold snaps. And dont let any tuner tell you that this wont be a problem because the facts are that he/she can not guarantee anything until the car exists in that situation.
Good Luck!
Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
I guarantee you will see a BIG difference between a car tuned with a fully programable system over a ANY piggyback on the market....
Originally Posted by PDXEvo
If you can guarantee that an EMS can perform as good or better then a stock ECU in every way I would buy into this. The honest truth though is you cant. An EMS will never be OBD-II compliant, does not contain multiple VE Tables, SPark Tables, Knock Correction tables, and several other tables, that the stock ECU utilizes everyday to keep a car running perfectly smooth. The ultimate solution is reflashing the stock ECU for 1/3 of the cost of utilizing an EMS. And that quote doesnt even include the tune.
Originally Posted by PDXEvo
If you can guarantee that an EMS can perform as good or better then a stock ECU in every way I would buy into this. The honest truth though is you cant. An EMS will never be OBD-II compliant, does not contain multiple VE Tables, SPark Tables, Knock Correction tables, and several other tables, that the stock ECU utilizes everyday to keep a car running perfectly smooth. The ultimate solution is reflashing the stock ECU for 1/3 of the cost of utilizing an EMS. And that quote doesnt even include the tune.
I CAN guarantee this. Look at every EVO out there that is concidered the "fastest" around. The top ones in this country run AEM.
Period.
As far as OBDII is concerned, you are 100% correct. It is not compliant and never will be.
You do not need multiple VE tables when the application is tuned specific to the vehicles performance needs.
You have ONE "VE" table that is used as a base open loop lookup table. That is all that is needed..
It also has all the spark control you can use. Full base mapping as a lookup and correction for knock and air temp to name a few.
That again is all that is needed..
O2 feedback works perfectly as well..
Ask anyone of our customers and they will be more than happy to tell you how they feel with their EMS.
Completely smooth and very powerful.
Now if we are going to discuss reflashing then the same can be said.
As an EcuTek dealer we have full scaling programability so the "oiggyback" parasite is not needed. That again will yield far better results also.
Originally Posted by David@Vishnu
You sir speak the truth and have nothing to gain from the 40% back from the EMS or the 500-1K for every tune and retune. Standalones Keep the speed shop "Tuners" happy and fat. The problem with full standalone pushers is that they dont have to be innovative, they dont have to understand and comprehend the intimate details of the ECU software or keep up to date with oem innovation. The simply rip out the cars brain that they are too lazy to understand and slap in a product they will make a killing off of now and in the future.
Do you know how much we charge for a standalone to be tuned?
Or are you basing this on your own commitment at the Vishnu shop?
I also think you have the laziness part mixed up. That is why Piggybacks were invented.
Instead of someone doing things right the first time they rely on deceptive tuning practices for an end result rather than a complete package.
Maybe some "tuners" have given you a bad taste in your mouth.
Don't make the mistake to classify all those people in the same catigory.
"Some" shops have a way of making "self proclaimed" tuner specific companys eat their words
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Sorry, guys I didint mean to turn this into a UTEC vs EMS thread. I know that there are pros and cons for each one. However, I still say that I do not feel the actual reason for this post has been adressed yet.
My questions are simply these:
1. For a 500-600WHP Daily Driven Street Machine, with a street trim turbo, and a street setup, would UTEC be sufficent or would you really need EMS?
I live in georgia, so there are not many drastic climate changes. With that said, thank you for answering my tuning question and letting me know you normally only need to retune for severe climate changes most of the time.
2. One of my BIGGEST concerns about EMS, if that is indeed the best solution for my setup and goals, is the question about self tuning. Is it realisitic that an individual will be able to fully utilize the power and options of an EMS without having to go to a professional tuner? Is it plausible that an individual with some tuning knowledge, could purchase an EMS, and learn how to fully tune it themselves? This is my BIGGEST concern with EMS. If indeed it can REALLY be tuned by an individual then I think EMS is the best option for me. If it is necessary to take it to a tuner shop to be configured then it is not really for me. If someone can answer this question it would be greatly appreciated.
I am sorry guys, I had no intention to make this post into a flame war or a shop vs shop war. Nor a rant against tuner shops. I merely was looking for information from fellow enthusiasts about my questions and goals. People who know much more about it then I do and have MUCH more experience in the matter.
Thanks a lot for the help guys.
-Sayajin
My questions are simply these:
1. For a 500-600WHP Daily Driven Street Machine, with a street trim turbo, and a street setup, would UTEC be sufficent or would you really need EMS?
I live in georgia, so there are not many drastic climate changes. With that said, thank you for answering my tuning question and letting me know you normally only need to retune for severe climate changes most of the time.
2. One of my BIGGEST concerns about EMS, if that is indeed the best solution for my setup and goals, is the question about self tuning. Is it realisitic that an individual will be able to fully utilize the power and options of an EMS without having to go to a professional tuner? Is it plausible that an individual with some tuning knowledge, could purchase an EMS, and learn how to fully tune it themselves? This is my BIGGEST concern with EMS. If indeed it can REALLY be tuned by an individual then I think EMS is the best option for me. If it is necessary to take it to a tuner shop to be configured then it is not really for me. If someone can answer this question it would be greatly appreciated.
I am sorry guys, I had no intention to make this post into a flame war or a shop vs shop war. Nor a rant against tuner shops. I merely was looking for information from fellow enthusiasts about my questions and goals. People who know much more about it then I do and have MUCH more experience in the matter.
Thanks a lot for the help guys.
-Sayajin
Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
I in no way said that an AEM EMS will be better than a stock ECU. Especially one flashed and tuned correctly.