Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

Nowhere do I state that my motor is basically stock. I clearly list my built motor in my signature. I do state that I'm using a stock head with272s, stock intake mani, stock throttle body, stock maf, stock ignition, stock ecu with flash. To me, that is a very significant list of stock parts for the performance I'm getting, so that is why I list them.

I would add that stock motors and built 2.3 liter strokers should generally stay at or below 8000 rpms. So the stock ECU isn't significantly out of range to be a problem.

Finally, I have no problem with good piggyback ecus like the Xede. I own one and will use it to enhance resolution, control alky, and gain several failsafes and features like lean-run protect and SMART. It can also control my GM MAF if I ever decide to use it.

Noogles

iTrader: (-1)

They Run a Full M800 with full telemetry & logging options.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Thanks Noogles. I knew it was a Motec but wasn't sure which one.

Alfred@TTech

iTrader: (3)

I agree with Sean regarding the lack of resolutiuon on the ecu. Due to this motors particular setup requirements, we dont rev the motor out. We are on the very top end of the capabilities of the stock ecu even though changes have been made to compensate for the greatly increased airflow.

This is by no means an end all solution for tuning. The EMS is an awesome tool and when this standalone EMS is fully utilized one will be hard pressed to beat it. Thats from both a cost and performance perspective.

The stock ecu is easily capable of taking "most" owners to a fun and respectable power level. But just like everything else, it has its limits.

Alfred

Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

I suppose they do now, but only seven weeks ago John M. said this about his race car:
I doubt they were running a SAFC on top of their M800. So Mueller and team laid waste to all comers with a stock ecu and an safc and have just very recently switched to a full stand alone.

Rez90

iTrader: (17)

What is the point of creating this thread? are you that board? Who cares what type of engine management people use? it's their choice....right? It's their car right?

Do what you want.....and let others do what they want......information is good, but there is no reason to criticize everyone with an EMS under 600whp.......

People need to find something better to do with their time..........seriously.....

i would have much rather read a post by you that titled "585whp on a FLASH!!!" To me that would have gotten you a much better response....cause it's impressive....but to poke at everyone else who got an EMS (for whatever reasons), just cause they're only making 500whp with it instead of 600whp..... Give me a break.................

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

The ECU has one major advantage over any standalone.. OBD-II, no, its not really useful, but it is legal, and you can get a highly modified car to pass an inspection LEGITIMATELY

To the other questions..

There are many tables that haven't been defined yet.. HOWEVER you can rescale the tables to accomodate any boost level, The tables aren't as granular, but in most circumstances its really not necessary..

you CAN rescale and recalibrate the MAF
you CAN rescale for Injectors and their Latency
you CAN adjust your closed loop targets (This in the ECU features, but we have not officially found the table for it yet)
Speed Density or a blowthrough MAF are only a simple conversion kit away
Logging using the EvoScan tool is really good, still missing some things, but getting there.

The stock ECU obviously doesn't have extra inputs and outputs, well Actually it does have several, but nobody has written a new rom to use them...

I do think you can make well over 600whp, probably quite a bit more, every day we find out more about the power of the stock ECU.

ECUFlash is fairly new, the ECU ROM have TONS more secrets to reveal, but every important parameter you can think of, Does have a table or data item associated with it. Only we have not found them all yet.

The AEM EMS or any standalone has its place.. But Don't write off the abilities of the Stock ECU just because its stock.. Also its the only standalone engine management actually legal for use on public roads on OBD-II cars.

Smogrunner made nearly 600whp, I'm sure there are more powerful cars out there that will turn up making even more power on the stock ECU.

There are obviously things lacking in the stock ECU, some are just due to parameters we don't have yet.. Others are things we just can't do anything about. But You will see some bigger numbers coming out of the stock ECU very soon.

Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

So Alfred, are you saying that my exact car, running the same boost and air fuel ratios, is going to be significantly faster or smoother with an AEM? Is it going to run better when I take it for a road trip over the San Bernardino mountains at over 9,000 ft elevation? If no, why should I spend $2400+ on it rather than get my wife Lazik eye surgery, or take a trip to visit my brother in Kenya? I don't need or want it to control alky or nitrous, I don't need it to switch maps (I can do that with an $89 dollar cable now). Ya know?

Sean@Iveytune

iTrader: (14)

You know I think some people are missing the point, you can physically make changes to alter the range of operation of the mas air, keep the car under a certain RPM and tune it for one magic boost level and lose the flexibility, that is all old DSM technology been there done that.
You perhaps can make 1000HP on a stock ecu, I am sure it can be done but based on what it will take and the lack of flexibility you are going to run into issues.

You can put a blow through carb on the evo and perhaps make the same thing, but the bottom line is accuracy, flexibility tunability.

1000 ways to skin a cat, choose your weapon.

And yes the Ecuflash is a great tool, I love it.

Sean

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Oh and going over 8000rpm, or over 30psi of boost are just a matter of altering the Axis, those axis values are referred to by the ECU, and aren't "Fixed values"

I do agree the Stock ECU doesn't have the greatest resolution though.. the stock ECU isn't the solution for everyone.. But I think the original point of this thread is that its more capable than most people think...

Sean@Iveytune

iTrader: (14)

I have used speed density with the stock ecu and made over 520 wheel hp no problem , it's called a MAP ECU, it's available and works well on the evo.
You cannot add resolution to the RPM scale, yet, on the stock ecu, the last adjustable RPM range is 7500RPM.
You will get to a point where you physically have to recal the airmeter not through SW.
Legality is lost once you perform certain mods, and passing an OBD2 test doesn't mean the car is legal. Just an upgraded turbo or cat or Downpipe is technically illegal. But yes you can slide it through.


But yes the stock ECU is great for modding up to a certain point, and it's better on the pocket also.

Sean

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I've rescaled my ECU to 9000rpm
I've rescaled the load sites to recognize 36psi of boost without overrunning
I converted to a blowthrough MAF calibrated to produce output similar to stock

There's really nothing old-school about that, old school is speed density..

Anyway, The best point is, now there are tools out there that can suit anyones needs..

Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

I think the fundamental problem with us Evo owners is found in our cars' phenomenol potential. Because of that potential, it is very hard for many of us to set appropriate power goals. I know I went overboard, and I have often counseled others to take a more conservative approach that is truer to the Evo's nature (370whp is fantastic). You guys ever notice all the overly modded Evos for sale. That is because folks over do it and want to start over and be more sensible the second time around.

That said, any Evo owner can have a PERFECTLY running 500whp car, that is as daily driveable as a stock Evo. All they need is the basic bolt on mods with a 3076 turbo and a good ECUFlash, Ecutek flash, or techtom flash. (I'd add that piggybacks can also get there but this thread isn't about that.) That is a fact that NO VENDER OR TUNER will deny unless they are lying. A car like this will run 11.5 at 123mph with any ole Dork like you or me driving it. Faster with an experienced shop and driver doing the prep. Now, Evo owners out there, why do you really need more than that?

However, for those who can't leave well enough alone (like me) you can go with a stroker motor and a 35R with a reflash and go out and run 11.0 at 128 without a problem, over and over again with Falken Azeni street tires spinning all the way through 1st and a well into second gear. Give me some drag radials and and another pound of boost (I was only running 31 psi) and who knows what the car will do.

If you need more than this, then by all means, go knock yourself out with a standalone.

ap-evo83

iTrader: (3)

i wish i didnt spend money on my aem after reading this thread tom. you make a good point.

Sean@Iveytune

iTrader: (14)

At about 24psi on certain turbos you have already maxed the reading of the airmeter. If the airmeter is reading max output there is nothing you can do in the SW to compensate as you have already passed the usable range of the airmeter.
If that point is 24psi, then yes you can tune the car at 30psi, but there will be no way for the ECU to tell weather you are at 24 or 30psi. Therefore you are making a compromise.
Now what if you want to just turn the boost up to 35psi, well without retuning it you cannot do this as the ECU can't tell the difference again.

Now tune it at 35psi and driving along you decide to drop the boost to 25psi, PIG RICH, and non optimal timing, because it was optimized at higher boost.

So yes you can get around these issues but the solutions are not what I call acceptable under those conditions for my customers, which is why I don't suggest it over a certain level.

The AEM will handle that like it's nothing, 5 bar map sensor, compensating for boost levels your AF will be rock solid, at the different levels of boost once you dont run out of fuel via injector or your fuel system

Plus it's alot easier for one to tune.


Sean