Pump gas Comp. Ratio Q's?
500-600 hp and youre talking about a new ecu? Unless you would be going full flex fuel, there is no need. Even at that, a Fitronic can be added to the stock ecu. Ive always wondered by people would spend money on useless additions.
But I dont judge, do as you please.
As many say, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
But I dont judge, do as you please.
As many say, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Maybe he wants the extra features a standalone offers. Or maybe he wants a user-friendly interface. Those are the main reasons I think would compel a person to go to a full standalone on mild horsepower levels.
And the car drives better since the ECU is intended to run speed density, as opposed to the trickery (as Abacus put it) to get speed density to work on the stock ECU. I've considered it for my car, its on the end of the list after other upgrades for track duty.
Trickery for sure. The stock ECU is so heavily laden with code who knows for sure what's going on in there. While Tephra's patch allows us to tweak the ECU in similar fashion to a standalone, code is still written to "trick" the ECU into thinking something is there when it's not (i.e. SD ROMs).
Guys have also reported being able to eek put a few more horsepower simply by switching to a quality standalone. Is the cost justified? That's for the end user to determine.
Guys have also reported being able to eek put a few more horsepower simply by switching to a quality standalone. Is the cost justified? That's for the end user to determine.
Sorry if this is long winded..
Hopefully this doesn't start a pissing match . The stock ecu is a great ecu but lets face it, its over 10 years old and even though tephra (thanks guys!) and alot of guys modified the code for it to run better its doing something it wasn't intended to do (SD)
I was on the fence for awhile with my car at 350 and then 500whp. I went from MAF to SD and played the AFR chasing game when the fuel heated up or cooled down. The AFR was "close enough" for the most part but I wanted complete control. Also, Cold start and the first ten minutes of running weren't great . You could not just turn the car on and drive away.
The warming up part could just be covered with fuel (full time open loop) but thats still trickery.
The knock filter settings are also another talk. My car never dynoed that clean until I went with a standalone. Some of this was map sensor noise (that can be adjusted via the standalone, also awd and ignition noise) My car picked up some low end power and drove WAY better. My tuner knows AEM, moTec and Haltech really well.
The night it was installed driveabilty got 50% better and the throttle response at any temp was crisp and not a shot in the dark. I wished I would've installed it years ago even on my stock turbocharger.
One of the biggest things with a standalone is LIVE changes. No flashing and waiting to see what happens. Its instant. Have a rough idle, just adjust the maps until its clean. Need to adjust something, pull a log and open it in the software. You can see exactly where something needs to be adjusted and replay the log and see where the cells need to be changed. We found 20whp with part throttle mivec adjustments within a few pulls.
Fitronic is cool if you really want to stay on the stock ecu. But it still doesn't have Live changes, fuel/timing adjustment PER cylinder or Fast logging like other ECU's. There are also a bunch of other features like a failsafe for loss of oil pressure, under/over target for boost, AFR,coolant temp.
I ran my car at Sebring last year wide open for 30 min at a time and looked at the wideband one time. I could not do that with the stock ecu since it has no fuel correction and fuel heating will effect AFR's. If the car leans out at 140mph its going to cost a engine.
Another example, My car was tuned on 1300's using a VE map on E85/C16 for high boost. Last monday I went with ID1700's and Jay spent a few minutes on cold/hot start and that was it. I turned the boost down to 25lbs and did a log on the highway AS I was driving to the dragstrip. I stopped at a light and glanced at the log . Everything was fine. Did another pull at 30 and then 35 and it liked it. I proceeded to run my best time (11.0@129.9) and then run an autocross at 25psi the next morning. Blasted around the course at over 500whp and then filled back up with E85 (it was actually E75) and drive another 100 miles during the weekend.
Here is an example of the log and how easy it is to make adjustments. The tabs at the top are all accessible with the open log on the bottom
The Infinity and most standalones will suggest (NEW VE on the video) what VE to put in the map. Even if you are off it will still make AFR target. You can also adjust how fast or slow the controller is. This can be nice for a set of large injectors that are in the dead zone in a light cruise situation . You can also see how smooth the timing is ramped in. Even if the map wasn't perfect timing will be ramped in smooth to not upset the engine.
Hopefully this doesn't start a pissing match . The stock ecu is a great ecu but lets face it, its over 10 years old and even though tephra (thanks guys!) and alot of guys modified the code for it to run better its doing something it wasn't intended to do (SD)
I was on the fence for awhile with my car at 350 and then 500whp. I went from MAF to SD and played the AFR chasing game when the fuel heated up or cooled down. The AFR was "close enough" for the most part but I wanted complete control. Also, Cold start and the first ten minutes of running weren't great . You could not just turn the car on and drive away.
The warming up part could just be covered with fuel (full time open loop) but thats still trickery.
The knock filter settings are also another talk. My car never dynoed that clean until I went with a standalone. Some of this was map sensor noise (that can be adjusted via the standalone, also awd and ignition noise) My car picked up some low end power and drove WAY better. My tuner knows AEM, moTec and Haltech really well.
The night it was installed driveabilty got 50% better and the throttle response at any temp was crisp and not a shot in the dark. I wished I would've installed it years ago even on my stock turbocharger.
One of the biggest things with a standalone is LIVE changes. No flashing and waiting to see what happens. Its instant. Have a rough idle, just adjust the maps until its clean. Need to adjust something, pull a log and open it in the software. You can see exactly where something needs to be adjusted and replay the log and see where the cells need to be changed. We found 20whp with part throttle mivec adjustments within a few pulls.
Fitronic is cool if you really want to stay on the stock ecu. But it still doesn't have Live changes, fuel/timing adjustment PER cylinder or Fast logging like other ECU's. There are also a bunch of other features like a failsafe for loss of oil pressure, under/over target for boost, AFR,coolant temp.
I ran my car at Sebring last year wide open for 30 min at a time and looked at the wideband one time. I could not do that with the stock ecu since it has no fuel correction and fuel heating will effect AFR's. If the car leans out at 140mph its going to cost a engine.
Another example, My car was tuned on 1300's using a VE map on E85/C16 for high boost. Last monday I went with ID1700's and Jay spent a few minutes on cold/hot start and that was it. I turned the boost down to 25lbs and did a log on the highway AS I was driving to the dragstrip. I stopped at a light and glanced at the log . Everything was fine. Did another pull at 30 and then 35 and it liked it. I proceeded to run my best time (11.0@129.9) and then run an autocross at 25psi the next morning. Blasted around the course at over 500whp and then filled back up with E85 (it was actually E75) and drive another 100 miles during the weekend.
Here is an example of the log and how easy it is to make adjustments. The tabs at the top are all accessible with the open log on the bottom
The Infinity and most standalones will suggest (NEW VE on the video) what VE to put in the map. Even if you are off it will still make AFR target. You can also adjust how fast or slow the controller is. This can be nice for a set of large injectors that are in the dead zone in a light cruise situation . You can also see how smooth the timing is ramped in. Even if the map wasn't perfect timing will be ramped in smooth to not upset the engine.
Last edited by Abacus; May 11, 2016 at 05:18 PM.
Sorry if this is long winded..
Hopefully this doesn't start a pissing match . The stock ecu is a great ecu but lets face it, its over 10 years old and even though tephra (thanks guys!) and alot of guys modified the code for it to run better its doing something it wasn't intended to do (SD)
I was on the fence for awhile with my car at 350 and then 500whp. I went from MAF to SD and played the AFR chasing game when the fuel heated up or cooled down. The AFR was "close enough" for the most part but I wanted complete control. Also, Cold start and the first ten minutes of running weren't great . You could not just turn the car on and drive away.
The warming up part could just be covered with fuel (full time open loop) but thats still trickery.
The knock filter settings are also another talk. My car never dynoed that clean until I went with a standalone. Some of this was map sensor noise (that can be adjusted via the standalone, also awd and ignition noise) My car picked up some low end power and drove WAY better. My tuner knows AEM, moTec and Haltech really well.
The night it was installed driveabilty got 50% better and the throttle response at any temp was crisp and not a shot in the dark. I wished I would've installed it years ago even on my stock turbocharger.
One of the biggest things with a standalone is LIVE changes. No flashing and waiting to see what happens. Its instant. Have a rough idle, just adjust the maps until its clean. Need to adjust something, pull a log and open it in the software. You can see exactly where something needs to be adjusted and replay the log and see where the cells need to be changed. We found 20whp with part throttle mivec adjustments within a few pulls.
Fitronic is cool if you really want to stay on the stock ecu. But it still doesn't have Live changes, fuel/timing adjustment PER cylinder or Fast logging like other ECU's. There are also a bunch of other features like a failsafe for loss of oil pressure, under/over target for boost, AFR,coolant temp.
I ran my car at Sebring last year wide open for 30 min at a time and looked at the wideband one time. I could not do that with the stock ecu since it has no fuel correction and fuel heating will effect AFR's. If the car leans out at 140mph its going to cost a engine.
Another example, My car was tuned on 1300's using a VE map on E85/C16 for high boost. Last monday I went with ID1700's and Jay spent a few minutes on cold/hot start and that was it. I turned the boost down to 25lbs and did a log on the highway AS I was driving to the dragstrip. I stopped at a light and glanced at the log . Everything was fine. Did another pull at 30 and then 35 and it liked it. I proceeded to run my best time (11.0@129.9) and then run an autocross at 25psi the next morning. Blasted around the course at over 500whp and then filled back up with E85 (it was actually E75) and drive another 100 miles during the weekend.
Here is an example of the log and how easy it is to make adjustments.
The Infinity and most standalones will suggest (NEW VE on the video) what VE to put in the map. Even if you are off it will still make AFR target. You can also adjust how fast or slow the controller is. This can be nice for a set of large injectors that are in the dead zone in a light cruise situation . You can also see how smooth the timing is ramped in. Even if the map wasn't perfect timing will be ramped in smooth to not upset the engine.
Hopefully this doesn't start a pissing match . The stock ecu is a great ecu but lets face it, its over 10 years old and even though tephra (thanks guys!) and alot of guys modified the code for it to run better its doing something it wasn't intended to do (SD)
I was on the fence for awhile with my car at 350 and then 500whp. I went from MAF to SD and played the AFR chasing game when the fuel heated up or cooled down. The AFR was "close enough" for the most part but I wanted complete control. Also, Cold start and the first ten minutes of running weren't great . You could not just turn the car on and drive away.
The warming up part could just be covered with fuel (full time open loop) but thats still trickery.
The knock filter settings are also another talk. My car never dynoed that clean until I went with a standalone. Some of this was map sensor noise (that can be adjusted via the standalone, also awd and ignition noise) My car picked up some low end power and drove WAY better. My tuner knows AEM, moTec and Haltech really well.
The night it was installed driveabilty got 50% better and the throttle response at any temp was crisp and not a shot in the dark. I wished I would've installed it years ago even on my stock turbocharger.
One of the biggest things with a standalone is LIVE changes. No flashing and waiting to see what happens. Its instant. Have a rough idle, just adjust the maps until its clean. Need to adjust something, pull a log and open it in the software. You can see exactly where something needs to be adjusted and replay the log and see where the cells need to be changed. We found 20whp with part throttle mivec adjustments within a few pulls.
Fitronic is cool if you really want to stay on the stock ecu. But it still doesn't have Live changes, fuel/timing adjustment PER cylinder or Fast logging like other ECU's. There are also a bunch of other features like a failsafe for loss of oil pressure, under/over target for boost, AFR,coolant temp.
I ran my car at Sebring last year wide open for 30 min at a time and looked at the wideband one time. I could not do that with the stock ecu since it has no fuel correction and fuel heating will effect AFR's. If the car leans out at 140mph its going to cost a engine.
Another example, My car was tuned on 1300's using a VE map on E85/C16 for high boost. Last monday I went with ID1700's and Jay spent a few minutes on cold/hot start and that was it. I turned the boost down to 25lbs and did a log on the highway AS I was driving to the dragstrip. I stopped at a light and glanced at the log . Everything was fine. Did another pull at 30 and then 35 and it liked it. I proceeded to run my best time (11.0@129.9) and then run an autocross at 25psi the next morning. Blasted around the course at over 500whp and then filled back up with E85 (it was actually E75) and drive another 100 miles during the weekend.
Here is an example of the log and how easy it is to make adjustments.
The Infinity and most standalones will suggest (NEW VE on the video) what VE to put in the map. Even if you are off it will still make AFR target. You can also adjust how fast or slow the controller is. This can be nice for a set of large injectors that are in the dead zone in a light cruise situation . You can also see how smooth the timing is ramped in. Even if the map wasn't perfect timing will be ramped in smooth to not upset the engine.
Another thing to mention is that the Evo 10 ECU has improvements over the Evo 8/9 ECU but it's still FAR away from standalone or the factory MED ecu in the Euro/Ford cars.
Pump gas Comp. Ratio Q's?
The five BIG reasons I have a Series 2:
1) Deals. I got a deal on it that I couldn't pass up. I ended up paying $500 and a couple parts I was never going to use, it would be stupid to pass that up.
2) Full Flex. Or another fast fuel is the goal, I just haven't located a solid source for Corn yet. This was mentioned on the original post.
3) Speed Density. Sure Tehpra v7 CAN run SD, but as soon as your fuel heats up, you're chasing AFR numbers. Not something I personally want to do while running lower octane fuels. Sure, you can run the stock ECU with some success, but you can also go to a Police Station and pull your d**k out with some success, if you can run fast enough.
4) Live Changes. Flashing sucks. When I finally locate some Corn, or decide to spend $8.00+ dollars per Gallon on something else, I don't want to have to run to a dyno or shop every single time I make a fuel, or part change. This is the biggest plus, for me personally anyways. Hell if I loose a MAP Sensor on the road, and all that's around is an Autozone, I could literally walk in, grab ANY Sensor that's compatible, plug in it's parameters, and POOF! I'm on the road again. Stock ECU's can't do that, unless Merlin is tuning your Evo.
5) Quality and ease of the tune. Sure dudes have laid down some serious HP/TQ numbers, extremely fast Traps and low ET's on the stock ECU, but those are purpose built cars usually doing one thing, with no family in them. That's not my car. I want to be able cruise around the family without having to worry about my car dying at a stop light. Or not starting. Or having any other issue that's common with stock ECU Trickery. They're there and we all know know it. Besides the family, I want to be able to extract everything out of this build that's possible, in which case the Series 2 is a better platform to do it on.
Beyond all of those, it's my car. LOL
What others may think is "useless" or "isn't needed", I look at in a different light, especially when it comes to EMS/ECU's. Spending a TON of money on your car, only to trick it into thinking you're running something else (like Fuel Scales for SD) is a Front-Runner mentality, in my opinion. Just because you don't "have to", doesn't mean you won't see benefits from it, because you will. Everything from reliability, data, live tuning, and how well your car runs will be improved running any EMS, if done right.
Do I absolutely need it? No..
Do I know many have done more than I ever will on a stock ECU? Yes..
If you're under 600whp are you wasting money buying an EMS? No..
Just my $0.02!
1) Deals. I got a deal on it that I couldn't pass up. I ended up paying $500 and a couple parts I was never going to use, it would be stupid to pass that up.
2) Full Flex. Or another fast fuel is the goal, I just haven't located a solid source for Corn yet. This was mentioned on the original post.
3) Speed Density. Sure Tehpra v7 CAN run SD, but as soon as your fuel heats up, you're chasing AFR numbers. Not something I personally want to do while running lower octane fuels. Sure, you can run the stock ECU with some success, but you can also go to a Police Station and pull your d**k out with some success, if you can run fast enough.
4) Live Changes. Flashing sucks. When I finally locate some Corn, or decide to spend $8.00+ dollars per Gallon on something else, I don't want to have to run to a dyno or shop every single time I make a fuel, or part change. This is the biggest plus, for me personally anyways. Hell if I loose a MAP Sensor on the road, and all that's around is an Autozone, I could literally walk in, grab ANY Sensor that's compatible, plug in it's parameters, and POOF! I'm on the road again. Stock ECU's can't do that, unless Merlin is tuning your Evo.
5) Quality and ease of the tune. Sure dudes have laid down some serious HP/TQ numbers, extremely fast Traps and low ET's on the stock ECU, but those are purpose built cars usually doing one thing, with no family in them. That's not my car. I want to be able cruise around the family without having to worry about my car dying at a stop light. Or not starting. Or having any other issue that's common with stock ECU Trickery. They're there and we all know know it. Besides the family, I want to be able to extract everything out of this build that's possible, in which case the Series 2 is a better platform to do it on.
Beyond all of those, it's my car. LOL
What others may think is "useless" or "isn't needed", I look at in a different light, especially when it comes to EMS/ECU's. Spending a TON of money on your car, only to trick it into thinking you're running something else (like Fuel Scales for SD) is a Front-Runner mentality, in my opinion. Just because you don't "have to", doesn't mean you won't see benefits from it, because you will. Everything from reliability, data, live tuning, and how well your car runs will be improved running any EMS, if done right.
Do I absolutely need it? No..
Do I know many have done more than I ever will on a stock ECU? Yes..
If you're under 600whp are you wasting money buying an EMS? No..
Just my $0.02!
This thread now has nothing to do with the original questions, lol. We get sidetracked harder then a blonde shopping.
Your points are right on however getting a stock ecu tuned by the right person, it would be hard to tell the difference in drivability. Powerwise, the change would be minimal. Would be cool to see a study done. 500-600hp vehicle on stock ecu vs same car with an AEM or something. Many people claim things. Proof is where the pudding is at.
Your points are right on however getting a stock ecu tuned by the right person, it would be hard to tell the difference in drivability. Powerwise, the change would be minimal. Would be cool to see a study done. 500-600hp vehicle on stock ecu vs same car with an AEM or something. Many people claim things. Proof is where the pudding is at.
Evolving Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 491
Likes: 8
From: Charleston, WV
This thread now has nothing to do with the original questions, lol. We get sidetracked harder then a blonde shopping.
Your points are right on however getting a stock ecu tuned by the right person, it would be hard to tell the difference in drivability. Powerwise, the change would be minimal. Would be cool to see a study done. 500-600hp vehicle on stock ecu vs same car with an AEM or something. Many people claim things. Proof is where the pudding is at.
Your points are right on however getting a stock ecu tuned by the right person, it would be hard to tell the difference in drivability. Powerwise, the change would be minimal. Would be cool to see a study done. 500-600hp vehicle on stock ecu vs same car with an AEM or something. Many people claim things. Proof is where the pudding is at.
One thing I question about going standalone is how big of a difference keeping AFR right at your target even makes vs venturing off by a couple tenths in different conditions. A couple tenths richer or leaner is not likely to be that big of a power difference. If it actual does make a big difference then that's another reason comparing dyno to dyno of the standalone vs stock ECU is not practical. The stock ECU is less likely to always run the AFR targeted when tuned on the dyno.
Definitely has gone off topic but after the OP got input...
One thing I question about going standalone is how big of a difference keeping AFR right at your target even makes vs venturing off by a couple tenths in different conditions. A couple tenths richer or leaner is not likely to be that big of a power difference. If it actual does make a big difference then that's another reason comparing dyno to dyno of the standalone vs stock ECU is not practical. The stock ECU is less likely to always run the AFR targeted when tuned on the dyno.
One thing I question about going standalone is how big of a difference keeping AFR right at your target even makes vs venturing off by a couple tenths in different conditions. A couple tenths richer or leaner is not likely to be that big of a power difference. If it actual does make a big difference then that's another reason comparing dyno to dyno of the standalone vs stock ECU is not practical. The stock ECU is less likely to always run the AFR targeted when tuned on the dyno.
Its not about power with AFR targeting, it's about safety.
For example, you likely lost your motor due to an accidental 38psi boost spike. With a stand alone, and boost targeting, that would have never happened.
Last edited by letsgetthisdone; May 12, 2016 at 10:03 AM.