boy, this tuning thing is getting interesting....
boy, this tuning thing is getting interesting....
Well i put in a new air filter today and now i dont hit load site 100 anymore. I used to always hit 100 and stay there a while!!! Does this mean it is more restrictive???? Ill put in the old one and check it again. Also went quite a bit leaner??? WTF?? If the air cleaner is more restrictive wont that make me richer?? RRR
Code:
, , , ,Load,Knock, , , Mod, Mod, , Mod, WB
RPM, MAP, MAF,TPS,Site,Count, Ign#1, Inj#1, Ign, Fuel,Boost, MAF, AFR
, psia, Hz, % , , , deg , duty , deg, % ,(OL) , Hz,
3831,+27.2, 486, 26, 00, 00, +25.1, 17.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 491, 14.96
3875,+27.2, 489, 26, 00, 00, +25.5, 17.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 499, 14.65
3972,+27.2, 664, 33, 10, 00, +19.5, 24.0, +7.7, +0.1,ECU. , 700, 14.49
4016,+27.2, 818, 39, 10, 00, +12.5, 34.0, +8.0, +0.0,ECU. , 868, 14.08
4110,+27.2, 927, 43, 20, 00, +7.5, 44.0, +8.0, +0.0,ECU. ,1037, 13.28
4224,+27.2,1035, 47, 30, 00, +7.9, 46.0, +8.0, -0.5,ECU. ,1054, 12.78
4374,+27.4,1106, 51, 40, 00, +9.6, 44.0, +8.4, -1.0,ECU. ,1152, 12.68
4480,+27.2,1054, 55, 40, 00, +9.7, 46.0, +8.9, -2.4,ECU. , 996, 12.71
4629,+27.2,1068, 62, 50, 00, +9.8, 47.0, +8.4, -3.3,ECU. ,1237, 12.68
4721,+27.2,1126, 79, 50, 00, +9.9, 48.0, +8.8, -4.3,ECU. ,1111, 12.78
4844,+27.2,1121, 93, 50, 00, +9.9, 50.0, +9.3, -4.5,100.00,1250, 12.83
4960,+27.2,1243, 98, 50, 00, +10.0, 52.0, +9.9, -4.5,100.00,1201, 12.78
5096,+27.2,1141, 99, 60, 00, +10.0, 52.0,+10.0, -6.3,100.00,1179, 12.61
5208,+27.0,1440,100, 60, 00, +10.0, 54.0,+10.0, -6.5,100.00,1184, 12.52
5333,+27.2,1420,100, 60, 00, +11.0, 55.0,+10.3, -7.1,100.00,1262, 12.53
5437,+27.0,1302,100, 70, 00, +11.2, 57.0,+10.7, -7.6,100.00,1269, 12.56
5555,+27.0,1373,100, 70, 00, +12.2, 58.0,+11.3, -8.3,100.00,1162, 12.52
5668,+27.0,1404,100, 70, 00, +13.3, 60.0,+11.7, -8.7,100.00,1288, 12.46
5807,+27.0,1412,100, 70, 00, +14.4, 61.0,+12.4, -9.3,100.00,1329, 12.37
5910,+27.2,1319,100, 70, 00, +14.6, 62.0,+13.0,-10.0,100.00,1420, 12.30
5995,+27.2,1543,100, 70, 00, +15.6, 62.0,+14.0,-10.8,100.00,1344, 12.25
6116,+27.2,1416,100, 70, 00, +16.3, 63.0,+14.0,-11.4,100.00,1358, 12.23
6218,+27.2,1479,100, 80, 00, +17.9, 63.0,+14.0,-11.9,100.00,1302, 12.33
6337,+27.0,1436,100, 80, 01, +14.2, 66.0,+14.3,-12.1,100.00,1358, 12.30
6435,+27.0,1644,100, 80, 00, +14.3, 66.0,+14.7,-12.2,100.00,1388, 12.21
6535,+27.0,1644,100, 80, 00, +15.5, 67.0,+15.6,-12.5,100.00,1396, 12.09
6653,+27.0,1533,100, 80, 00, +15.5, 68.0,+16.8,-13.0,100.00,1388, 11.98
6747,+27.2,1572,100, 80, 00, +16.6, 68.0,+18.0,-13.4,100.00,1358, 11.93
6844,+27.2,1618,100, 80, 00, +18.7, 70.0,+18.0,-13.4,100.00,1396, 11.92
6915,+27.2,1552,100, 80, 00, +16.8, 70.0,+18.0,-13.4,100.00,1373, 11.84
7032,+27.2,1700,100, 80, 00, +17.8, 73.0,+18.1,-13.4,100.00,1436, 11.73
7092,+27.2,1612,100, 90, 00, +17.9, 72.0,+17.4,-13.0,100.00,1428, 11.52
7183,+27.4,1661,100, 80, 00, +18.9, 72.0,+18.9,-13.4,100.00,1412, 11.37
7278,+27.2,1706,100, 90, 00, +19.5, 73.0,+18.0,-13.0,100.00,1428, 11.42
7374,+27.2,1582,100, 90, 00, +19.2, 73.0,+18.0,-13.0,100.00,1420, 11.42
7423,+27.2,1547,100, 90, 00, +19.4, 73.0,+18.0,-13.0,100.00,1351, 11.37
7507,+27.2,1597,100, 90, 00, +19.3, 73.0,+18.1,-13.0,100.00,1453, 11.42
7610,+27.4,1592,100, 90, 00, +20.7, 73.0,+18.4,-13.0,100.00,1358, 11.39
7645,+27.4,1644,100, 90, 00, +20.8, 72.0,+19.0,-13.1,100.00,1412, 11.81
7698,+27.4,1597,100, 90, 00, +24.8, 58.0,+18.7,-13.1,100.00,1207, 14.58
The new filter probably affected the flow across the sensor... is it a new drop in filter or did you replace the airbox???
Anyway, you can bump the MAF max down to 16 (1600 Hz) which will drop you back in load site 100.
Anyway, you can bump the MAF max down to 16 (1600 Hz) which will drop you back in load site 100.
Hmm.. Depends on the filter you used, like Mad said..
Its one of two things.. Its slightly more restrictive (unlikely) or turbulence is preventing the air from passing over the sensor correctly, therefore reading lower..
This is a classic problem with aftermarket air filters in this car, and its 100% the origin of the "Horsepower claims" made by the manufacturers of the filter.. If you reduce the MAF frequency, you reduce the load site on the factory ECU, therefore running leaner (almost exactly like installing an s-afc and setting it to -15%)
That is why many tuners have specific tuning 'profiles' they use for aftermarket filters.
I can tell you that my Buschur Filter shows a very lean spot (and I have it documented at this point) from 3000-5000rpm and normal to fairly rich everywhere above, but NOT as rich as "Bone stock airbox"
Its definitely the flow characteristics of the filter, for some reason "Cone filters" seem to cause turbulence before entering the MAF since its certainly not restriction.
If you just installed a new panel filter on a stock airbox.. then its probably an oiled K&N panel filter.. the airbox is calibrated for a certain volume of air, I can only suspect that making any changes affects the sensor.
The truth is if you consistenly use the same aftermarket filter, then tuning for it will 'remove the gremlin'.
There *IS* one more thing I feel I should point out.. There is the possibility that if you used an oiled aftermarket filter, that there's a small possibility that oil from the filter contaminated the MAF sensor, I recall seeing a post somewhere on a technique to clean the MAF sensor without damaging it.
As of yet, I do not know of an air filter assembly that has been designed with an emphasis on flow characteristics, and not maximum airflow... The ONLY one that looks promising because of its long pipe is the APS Cold Air kit.. (the long cast filter assembly with the filter where the intercooler sprayer bottle was) But I do not know ANYONE who has tried it yet and made any observations. I suspect anything that spaces the cone filter away from the MAF sensor more than 6" should be enough to help. (If someone knows of a 2 piece cone filter kit thats inexpensive, let me know, I'll get one and make an extension tube for it and test it out)
Its one of two things.. Its slightly more restrictive (unlikely) or turbulence is preventing the air from passing over the sensor correctly, therefore reading lower..
This is a classic problem with aftermarket air filters in this car, and its 100% the origin of the "Horsepower claims" made by the manufacturers of the filter.. If you reduce the MAF frequency, you reduce the load site on the factory ECU, therefore running leaner (almost exactly like installing an s-afc and setting it to -15%)
That is why many tuners have specific tuning 'profiles' they use for aftermarket filters.
I can tell you that my Buschur Filter shows a very lean spot (and I have it documented at this point) from 3000-5000rpm and normal to fairly rich everywhere above, but NOT as rich as "Bone stock airbox"
Its definitely the flow characteristics of the filter, for some reason "Cone filters" seem to cause turbulence before entering the MAF since its certainly not restriction.
If you just installed a new panel filter on a stock airbox.. then its probably an oiled K&N panel filter.. the airbox is calibrated for a certain volume of air, I can only suspect that making any changes affects the sensor.
The truth is if you consistenly use the same aftermarket filter, then tuning for it will 'remove the gremlin'.
There *IS* one more thing I feel I should point out.. There is the possibility that if you used an oiled aftermarket filter, that there's a small possibility that oil from the filter contaminated the MAF sensor, I recall seeing a post somewhere on a technique to clean the MAF sensor without damaging it.
As of yet, I do not know of an air filter assembly that has been designed with an emphasis on flow characteristics, and not maximum airflow... The ONLY one that looks promising because of its long pipe is the APS Cold Air kit.. (the long cast filter assembly with the filter where the intercooler sprayer bottle was) But I do not know ANYONE who has tried it yet and made any observations. I suspect anything that spaces the cone filter away from the MAF sensor more than 6" should be enough to help. (If someone knows of a 2 piece cone filter kit thats inexpensive, let me know, I'll get one and make an extension tube for it and test it out)
FWIW what you posted looks like an EXACT MIRROR of the results I got with the buschur cone filter, right down to the MAF reading and AFR's (And my UTEC was set to Switch 0, or STOCK MODE) Even my timing is real close to your modified.. How is that for weird.. It certainly explains why my car ran unusually well when it was stock.
I wonder if the stock flash in my car is different than the "Commonly used" flash other stock cars have.
I wonder if the stock flash in my car is different than the "Commonly used" flash other stock cars have.
All i did was remove the factory panel filter and put in a new STP panel filter. Ime on my way out with both filters to see whats up. I may get a K&N panel this week. But the Typhoon will never see the light of day again!! Looking at the stock airbox, seems like it needs more intake air volumn. Like the little snorkel might not be big enough??
Their saying it works well, even power levels to about 350whp (I doubt that claim is 100% accurate, but it seems valid)
Truth is, the air box is probably calibrated to the maximum airflow the MAF sensor can utilize.. so if you exceed the capacity of the box, you're probably seeing a restriction in the MAF too..
Oddly enough, that panel filter may actually be more restrictive, but if that was the case, you'd generally see normal to rich.. not lean spots..
Truth is, the air box is probably calibrated to the maximum airflow the MAF sensor can utilize.. so if you exceed the capacity of the box, you're probably seeing a restriction in the MAF too..
Oddly enough, that panel filter may actually be more restrictive, but if that was the case, you'd generally see normal to rich.. not lean spots..
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Hey Jack,
Check out AFE filter, i think it advanced filtration engineering. There filters have venturi bases on them and flow real well in the elongated cone design..... You can buy em based on the size you require....
I had one on my duratech powered ford that always cause the afr to read lean either because it smoothed out the flow too much or moved the stream relative to the sensor. I had though about trying one once I get a wide band to tune from but I don't have a maf flange to work from...
Check out AFE filter, i think it advanced filtration engineering. There filters have venturi bases on them and flow real well in the elongated cone design..... You can buy em based on the size you require....
I had one on my duratech powered ford that always cause the afr to read lean either because it smoothed out the flow too much or moved the stream relative to the sensor. I had though about trying one once I get a wide band to tune from but I don't have a maf flange to work from...
well i choked on this one. Went out tuning today and found the problem. I had the EVC on my daily driver 15 psi, not on my hot rod 19. Changed modes and all is well. I am holding 100 load from about 6300 up. I just need a day with a competent driver so i can run the lap top. The wife makes me nervous. RRR
Ray,
I tend to agree that the filter is not "more restrictive" just simply is changing the way the sensor is counting the airflow across the sensor.
I'd richen your map back up a little bit in the midrange, but from what we've seen you can get away with being quite a bit leaner up top then we've previously run these cars.
I've road tuned a few to 12:1 with very good success.
On the other hand the HP jump from 11.5:1 to 12:1 isn't that large and may not be worth the increase in EGT and loss of detonation resistance.
Sorry we've been away from this board for the last week or so. We've been slammed here at the shop and have been working hard on another product
-Nathan
www.turboxs.com
I tend to agree that the filter is not "more restrictive" just simply is changing the way the sensor is counting the airflow across the sensor.
I'd richen your map back up a little bit in the midrange, but from what we've seen you can get away with being quite a bit leaner up top then we've previously run these cars.
I've road tuned a few to 12:1 with very good success.
On the other hand the HP jump from 11.5:1 to 12:1 isn't that large and may not be worth the increase in EGT and loss of detonation resistance.
Sorry we've been away from this board for the last week or so. We've been slammed here at the shop and have been working hard on another product
-Nathan
www.turboxs.com
I'm frequently seeing really lean numbers.. but I suspect my MAF readings are contributing to this.. Any word on the new flash release so I am no longer at the mercy of offsets??