Can I see some timing maps?
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
From: Apex, NC
Originally Posted by BigBoogieman
Reignman,
I'm working on some new features in my map editor (UCC) that help you create a base timing map. It created this one based on a 3rd gear pull that you posted in another thread. Take a look at this and let me know how it looks. It's really better if you can do a 4th gear run due to the UTEC's sample rate, but this might be close.
If you use UCC, you can load your current map, then do "Insert Map From File" to pull this timing map into it.
I'm working on some new features in my map editor (UCC) that help you create a base timing map. It created this one based on a 3rd gear pull that you posted in another thread. Take a look at this and let me know how it looks. It's really better if you can do a 4th gear run due to the UTEC's sample rate, but this might be close.
If you use UCC, you can load your current map, then do "Insert Map From File" to pull this timing map into it.
Its interesting you actually did that with UCC.. I extract base timing in a similar manner by hand.. whats scary is the timing map looks real close to the one I posted from my car's stock ECU..
It will be nice to be able to auto-plug in timing values across different load sites.. Thats the one hard thing to do by hand.. I like UCC, it reflects almost exactly what I would have done with my app if I had the time to work on it.
It will be nice to be able to auto-plug in timing values across different load sites.. Thats the one hard thing to do by hand.. I like UCC, it reflects almost exactly what I would have done with my app if I had the time to work on it.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
From: SW PA
Well it's good to be able to help YOU out for a change Jack 
I forgot to mention this, I highly recommend setting your entire 10% load column to ECU to smooth things out. Otherwise this 10% column is going to be too low in many cases and you're going to feel a jerk when the UTEC crosses into it from the 0% column.
I added 2 timing map features to UCC. The main one is "Fill Map". You start with a map that contains any number of values you want, as long as there is at least 1 value somewhere in the lowest row you're using and at least 1 in the highest. You could put in only 3 values (like I did for the map I'm running now), or you could fill up parts of it, whatever. It interpolates / calculates / estimates all missing values for you. The other part of it will create that initial "skeleton" map by extracting a run from a log, which you could then modify / add to / delete from, before finally doing a Fill Map.
All I did to create that map above is imported the log, did a Create Skeleton, deleted one of the values that was out of order, then did a Fill Map. I think if you spent some time tweaking the skeleton first you could get some pretty good results.
If anyone sends me a log of a full-throttle run, I'll create a map out of it for you. I would really like to get some feedback on the quality of these generated maps.
I forgot to mention this, I highly recommend setting your entire 10% load column to ECU to smooth things out. Otherwise this 10% column is going to be too low in many cases and you're going to feel a jerk when the UTEC crosses into it from the 0% column.
I added 2 timing map features to UCC. The main one is "Fill Map". You start with a map that contains any number of values you want, as long as there is at least 1 value somewhere in the lowest row you're using and at least 1 in the highest. You could put in only 3 values (like I did for the map I'm running now), or you could fill up parts of it, whatever. It interpolates / calculates / estimates all missing values for you. The other part of it will create that initial "skeleton" map by extracting a run from a log, which you could then modify / add to / delete from, before finally doing a Fill Map.
All I did to create that map above is imported the log, did a Create Skeleton, deleted one of the values that was out of order, then did a Fill Map. I think if you spent some time tweaking the skeleton first you could get some pretty good results.
If anyone sends me a log of a full-throttle run, I'll create a map out of it for you. I would really like to get some feedback on the quality of these generated maps.
You'll have to send me beta stuff to test with.. since I do build my maps almost exactly like that.. unfortunately in the past I've had to "Tween" the values myself, or select portions and use your ramp feature back and forth till I get a smooth transition in two dimensions.. This is where that color coding of the cells would come in handy.. you'd quickly tell which cells are abhorrant..
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
From: Apex, NC
BigBoogieman,
I was looking at the timing map you generated and was wondering if it is too aggressive or not. Here is my log from a 3rd gear pull. Around when full boost comes in your map advances timing by around 2-3 deg over what the stock ecu (Dynoflashed) wants to run. Do you think this is too aggressive?
I was looking at the timing map you generated and was wondering if it is too aggressive or not. Here is my log from a 3rd gear pull. Around when full boost comes in your map advances timing by around 2-3 deg over what the stock ecu (Dynoflashed) wants to run. Do you think this is too aggressive?
Code:
, , , ,Load,Knock, , , Mod, Mod, , Mod, WB
RPM, MAP, MAF,TPS,Site,Count, Ign#1, Inj#1, Ign, Fuel,Boost, MAF, AFR
, psia, Hz, % , , , deg , duty , deg, % ,(OL) , Hz,
1384,+26.3, 206, 73, 10, 00, +5.2, 9.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 343, 00.00
1402,+26.3, 270, 75, 10, 00, +5.2, 9.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 270, 00.00
1453,+26.3, 164, 80, 10, 00, +9.0, 8.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 184, 00.00
1486,+26.3, 211, 80, 10, 00, +10.1, 8.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 165, 00.00
1551,+26.3, 173, 82, 10, 00, +10.1, 8.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 248, 00.00
1601,+26.3, 249, 84, 10, 00, +11.1, 8.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 191, 00.00
1665,+26.1, 262, 85, 10, 00, +11.2, 8.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 189, 00.00
1746,+26.1, 263, 84, 10, 00, +12.2, 9.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 271, 00.00
1793,+26.1, 323, 85, 10, 00, +12.2, 9.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 251, 00.00
1877,+26.1, 301, 96, 10, 00, +12.2, 10.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 297, 00.00
1924,+26.1, 296,100, 10, 00, +12.3, 11.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 299, 00.00
1991,+26.1, 329,100, 10, 00, +12.3, 11.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 318, 00.00
2078,+26.1, 303,100, 10, 00, +12.3, 12.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 281, 00.00
2143,+26.1, 318,100, 10, 00, +12.3, 13.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 325, 00.00
2200,+26.1, 367,100, 10, 00, +12.4, 14.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 364, 00.00
2278,+26.1, 366,100, 10, 00, +12.3, 15.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 354, 00.00
2352,+26.1, 355,100, 10, 00, +11.3, 16.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 440, 00.00
2424,+26.1, 420,100, 10, 00, +11.4, 17.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 428, 00.00
2529,+26.1, 420,100, 10, 00, +11.4, 18.0,ECU. , +0.2,ECU. , 366, 00.00
2622,+26.1, 437,100, 10, 00, +11.5, 18.0,ECU. , +1.0,ECU. , 480, 00.00
2675,+26.1, 554,100, 10, 00, +10.3, 19.0,ECU. , +1.4,ECU. , 461, 00.00
2768,+26.1, 526,100, 10, 00, +10.4, 21.0,ECU. , +2.0,ECU. , 576, 00.00
2851,+26.1, 610,100, 10, 00, +9.4, 23.0,ECU. , +2.1,ECU. , 466, 00.00
2965,+26.1, 591,100, 10, 00, +7.7, 27.0,ECU. , +2.2,ECU. , 769, 00.00
3052,+26.1, 589,100, 10, 00, +5.9, 31.0,ECU. , +2.3,ECU. , 827, 00.00
3144,+26.1, 922,100, 10, 00, +5.9, 35.0,ECU. , +2.2,ECU. , 972, 00.00
3274,+26.1, 781,100, 10, 00, +6.4, 40.0,ECU. , +1.9,ECU. , 757, 00.00
3394,+26.1, 739,100, 20, 00, +6.5, 45.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 856, 00.00
3527,+26.1, 917,100, 30, 00, +6.4, 50.0,ECU. , +1.8,ECU. ,1358, 00.00
3671,+26.1,1052,100, 40, 00, +6.1, 53.0,ECU. , +1.2,ECU. ,1322, 00.00
3809,+26.3, 734,100, 50, 00, +6.4, 53.0,ECU. , +2.1,ECU. ,1256, 00.00
3958,+26.1, 744,100, 40, 00, +6.4, 50.0,ECU. , +1.6,ECU. ,1196, 00.00
4115,+26.1, 996,100, 50, 00, +6.5, 52.0,ECU. , +2.5,ECU. ,1288, 00.00
4246,+26.1,1196,100, 40, 00, +6.5, 56.0,ECU. , +1.9,ECU. ,1225, 00.00
4385,+26.1,1176,100, 40, 00, +6.9, 56.0,ECU. , +1.5,ECU. ,1231, 00.00
4480,+25.9,1305,100, 50, 00, +6.9, 58.0,ECU. , +1.4,ECU. ,1213, 00.00
4649,+25.9,1096,100, 50, 00, +7.0, 63.0,ECU. , +1.6,ECU. ,1358, 00.00
4782,+25.9,1388,100, 50, 00, +8.0, 66.0,ECU. , +1.2,ECU. ,1329, 00.00
4901,+25.9,1412,100, 50, 00, +8.0, 66.0,ECU. , +0.4,ECU. ,1207, 00.00
5012,+26.1,1396,100, 60, 00, +9.0, 64.0,ECU. , -1.4,ECU. ,1152, 00.00
5167,+25.9,1344,100, 60, 00, +8.9, 65.0,ECU. , -1.4,ECU. ,1308, 00.00
5274,+26.1,1381,100, 70, 00, +9.0, 69.0,ECU. , -2.0,ECU. ,1582, 00.00
5402,+25.9,1519,100, 70, 00, +8.4, 72.0,ECU. , -2.0,ECU. ,1524, 00.00
5546,+25.9,1506,100, 80, 00, +9.2, 73.0,ECU. , -2.0,ECU. ,1488, 00.00
5659,+25.9,1449,100, 80, 00, +9.2, 73.0,ECU. , -2.0,ECU. ,1515, 00.00
5797,+25.9,1597,100, 80, 00, +10.1, 74.0,ECU. , -2.0,ECU. ,1689, 00.00
5931,+25.9,1602,100, 80, 00, +11.2, 76.0,ECU. , -2.0,ECU. ,1644, 00.00
6049,+25.9,1587,100, 90, 00, +11.4, 78.0,ECU. , -2.0,ECU. ,1677, 00.00
6161,+25.9,1618,100, 90, 00, +12.3, 77.0,ECU. , -1.9,ECU. ,1724, 00.00
6289,+25.9,1497,100, 90, 00, +13.4, 78.0,ECU. , -1.8,ECU. ,1543, 00.00
6410,+25.9,1612,100, 90, 00, +14.4, 78.0,ECU. , -1.7,ECU. ,1515, 00.00
6497,+25.9,1567,100, 90, 00, +14.3, 79.0,ECU. , -1.5,ECU. ,1748, 00.00
6600,+25.9,1628,100, 90, 00, +15.2, 81.0,ECU. , -1.5,ECU. ,1623, 00.00
6720,+25.9,1602,100, 90, 00, +16.2, 81.0,ECU. , -1.5,ECU. ,1773, 00.00
6830,+25.7,1712,100,100, 00, +18.6, 81.0,ECU. , -1.9,ECU. ,1712, 00.00
6915,+25.7,1607,100, 90, 00, +19.5, 82.0,ECU. , -1.6,ECU. ,1623, 00.00
7032,+25.7,1694,100, 90, 00, +21.7, 84.0,ECU. , -1.6,ECU. ,1666, 00.00
7122,+25.7,1872,100, 90, 00, +20.7, 83.0,ECU. , -1.6,ECU. ,1677, 00.00
7183,+25.9,1466, 70, 90, 00, +21.2, 80.0,ECU. , -1.6,ECU. , 922, 00.00
7032,+25.9, 130, 11, 00, 00, +38.8, 7.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 125, 00.00
6930,+25.9, 87, 3, 00, 00, +38.8, 7.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 71, 00.00
6410,+25.7, 48, 0, 00, 00, +38.6, 6.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 58, 00.00
5941,+25.7, 53, 0, 00, 00, +28.6, 6.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 50, 00.00
If it isnt knocking then you it is probally not too agressive, although it might not be the best amount to run.. There is a point where advancing stops making power, or will only make minimal power,that is why a dyno is such a good tuning tool.. There is a "minimum best timing" On the dyno if you add timing and you are not making signifigant power from it, you should just back it down to what you have found the MBT to be.
I would not worry about what Al's flash is running, since he probally tunes it on the "safe" side.. I had the disprivelage of watching the "master" work at a recent dyno day and let me just say that i fear for all of you running those flashes..
I would not worry about what Al's flash is running, since he probally tunes it on the "safe" side.. I had the disprivelage of watching the "master" work at a recent dyno day and let me just say that i fear for all of you running those flashes..
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
From: Apex, NC
Originally Posted by Spec C
If it isnt knocking then you it is probally not too agressive, although it might not be the best amount to run.. There is a point where advancing stops making power, or will only make minimal power,that is why a dyno is such a good tuning tool.. There is a "minimum best timing" On the dyno if you add timing and you are not making signifigant power from it, you should just back it down to what you have found the MBT to be.
I would not worry about what Al's flash is running, since he probally tunes it on the "safe" side.. I had the disprivelage of watching the "master" work at a recent dyno day and let me just say that i fear for all of you running those flashes..
I would not worry about what Al's flash is running, since he probally tunes it on the "safe" side.. I had the disprivelage of watching the "master" work at a recent dyno day and let me just say that i fear for all of you running those flashes..
The timing on the stock ECU is all over the place.. It depends on how much MAF offset your running also (since it indirectly affects the ECU's timing curve)
But generally it can run from 10 degrees, all the way to 23 degrees.. and it doesn't seem to always be consistent and there's rarely audible knock associated with it so there's obviously other things going on behind the scenes..
I can tell you one of the maps I posted has a great timing curve.. but a terrible fuel curve (its rich as hell and needs tweaking, but was done as a safe starting point since I didn't want to have trouble) It still made over 320whp before I started working with it. What I did notice was the timing at higher RPM under certain loads was a little too much, and had to back it off .5 to 1 degree.. I'm sure every car varies alot from that standpoint.
But generally it can run from 10 degrees, all the way to 23 degrees.. and it doesn't seem to always be consistent and there's rarely audible knock associated with it so there's obviously other things going on behind the scenes..
I can tell you one of the maps I posted has a great timing curve.. but a terrible fuel curve (its rich as hell and needs tweaking, but was done as a safe starting point since I didn't want to have trouble) It still made over 320whp before I started working with it. What I did notice was the timing at higher RPM under certain loads was a little too much, and had to back it off .5 to 1 degree.. I'm sure every car varies alot from that standpoint.
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
From: Apex, NC
I am going to try this timing map and see if I get any knock. I would think the Dynoflash would have to be conservative with timing on a mail in reflash because it would run the risk of detonation because of car to car variations.
One question for you Jack. Does the stock ECU run constant timing values like the UTEC? If the engine is at a certain load point and rpm will the stock computer always have the same timing for that cell or can the timing be differant? I was thinking the stock maps are more complicated like a 3d map.
One question for you Jack. Does the stock ECU run constant timing values like the UTEC? If the engine is at a certain load point and rpm will the stock computer always have the same timing for that cell or can the timing be differant? I was thinking the stock maps are more complicated like a 3d map.
Generally yes, It will be fairly constant assuming your ECU isn't compensating for some issue like detonation, heat, or something else. The factory ECU has two Fuel and two Timing maps, (Primary and secondary) one is a low octane (High Det) the other is High octane (Low det) when there is no "knock events" both maps will be in the primary map.. The problem is there will be times (high humidity, or other weird issues) that you may find one of the maps, or both, somewhere in between.
Technically we do have something similar to that for temp compensation but its not a specific map, basically when the temp of the air rises above a certain point, you can setup the UTEC to add fuel and timing (I don't think its specifically configured by default though)
the Factory ECU is pretty close to a 3D map since depending on the severity of the conditions its compensating for, it can travel somewhere between the maps and not just switch back and forth. Obviously this has its advantages and disadvantages..
Technically we do have something similar to that for temp compensation but its not a specific map, basically when the temp of the air rises above a certain point, you can setup the UTEC to add fuel and timing (I don't think its specifically configured by default though)
the Factory ECU is pretty close to a 3D map since depending on the severity of the conditions its compensating for, it can travel somewhere between the maps and not just switch back and forth. Obviously this has its advantages and disadvantages..
a Feature that I'd like to see from TurboXS is MAP LINKING, where you would actually do this with the UTEC where you can have a low priority map in one of your unused map slots, and you can then link it to your active map.. If conditions are a problem, or there's some issue, it can offset/alter the values between the two depending on the conditions (Coolant temp, air temp, knock thresholds, etc..) Maybe we can get a feature like that..
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
From: Apex, NC
Yeah it would be a nice feature. For engines that are more knock prone it could help to get the most power and still have the UTEC switch to a conservative map if needed. I did notice the setting to add fuel and pull timing for temperature but I think it would be even better to have a secondary map for differant conditions to really fine tune it. I havent noticed the need to use a secondary map on my car yet but I also havent had the UTEC that long.
I agree, a feature like that would be grand.
Out here in California with 91 octane and 100 degree dry weather, conditions are less than ideal, but ideal for knock.
Anyhow, I don't want to make a new thread but is anyone running 91 octane w/ their UTEC?
Out here in California with 91 octane and 100 degree dry weather, conditions are less than ideal, but ideal for knock.
Anyhow, I don't want to make a new thread but is anyone running 91 octane w/ their UTEC?
Originally Posted by e8
I agree, a feature like that would be grand.
Out here in California with 91 octane and 100 degree dry weather, conditions are less than ideal, but ideal for knock.
Anyhow, I don't want to make a new thread but is anyone running 91 octane w/ their UTEC?
Out here in California with 91 octane and 100 degree dry weather, conditions are less than ideal, but ideal for knock.
Anyhow, I don't want to make a new thread but is anyone running 91 octane w/ their UTEC?