Looking to Turbo your lancer? Read this first
Aug 4, 2006, 12:59 PM
#1
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking to Turbo your lancer? Read this first
Well i'm reposting this here per the Mod (blacksheepdj). It was a response to a thread in the site suggestions forum.
Heres a run down of the two most popular turbo kits out there....
1) RRM intercooled stage 1 kit - The most tried and true kit available for the lancer. Many years of research and use on customer cars. Kit consists of a t28 turbo set at 7psi, 12:1 ratio vortech FMU to control fuel management, all necessary piping, walbro 255lph fuel pump, bosch generic blow off valve (option for greddy type bovs), detailed install instructions, great customer support.
Other kits now available. This is not the only option. 16G turbos, tubular manifolds, etc.
Pros - Many years of research and customer support, kit is ready to go right out of the box, Pipes are all powdercoated and nice, kit is well put together and looks good.
Cons - A bit pricey, Doesnt use dedicated turbo manifold, uses up/downpipes
2) TSI intercooled kit - Originally designed for the mirage 4g93 engine, t25 turbo, 14:1 ratio fmu (with other options for fuel control), generic instructions if any, power on a budget, many people using it with good results
Pros - Less expensive than RRM, Overall decent kit, only minor modifications needed for fitment (average mechanical abilities and know how can get it working fine), less expensive than RRM, good for people who want to substitute parts or build off of the non intercooled TSI kit to customize a bit
Cons - Needs some modifications for fitment (downpipe needs extending, need a bov and flange, oil lines may need to be upgraded/lengthened, FMIC with the intercooled kit is too big, requires bumper cutting), fmu is ok, but recommend upgrading to better fuel management and 255 walbro too
Both of these kits are worth it, it just depends on how well you think you understand the workings of a turbo kit and how mechanically inclined you are. If you want a kit that will plug and play right out of the box, go with RRM, if you want a kit that will save you money, but require minor modification, go with TSI.
The RRM stage 2 upgrade for power over the 200hp mark at the wheels ditches the fmu and upgrades the injectors to 370cc RC units, installation of the preprogrammed stage 2 RRM piggy back, and upping the boost to 8 or 9psi.
FMU
The limits of a setup with an FMU and stock injectors with an upgraded fuel pump (which is a necessity with any turbo kit) is 7psi. Do not go over unless you swap to larger injectors and a tune, the pressure will not be able to keep up in the higher RPMs and boost levels and you will run lean with the FMU.
Intercooler
You can put whatever size intercooler you want on your system, the main concern is A) pressure loss, and B) fitment. The intercooler supplied with the RRM turbo kit (18x7x3) is generally the largest intercooler that will fit behind the stock bumper without major modification. It has the best flow rating for the application as well. Anything larger that that will run into a) fitment issues requirement modification of the bumpers and or supports, and b) greater pressure loss due to less efficiency for targeted boost levels
Fuel Upgrades
For the best control over your fuel delivery and the option to upgrade boost levels, it is recommended to use an upgraded injector/piggyback system for any boost levels above 7. You can use this for boost levels below 7, but it is not necessary unless you want to be in total control of your tune. Recommended injectors are 370cc units and above, but not exceeding around 450cc unless boost levels will be over 12 psi with upgraded internals. RC makes good injectors but if you are looking for a cheaper route any top feed saturated high impedence fuel injector will fit the bill. Stock 440cc WRX injectors are a direct swap into the lancer, requiring no longer fuel rail bolts or major modification.
Fuel Control
Tuning can be achieved via a wide range of options however there are a few more commonly used methods.
SAFC - The apexi SAFC unit is simple to use once you navigate your way through the controls, and is also very good for somebody looking to make changes on the fly. The unit has been used by many people in both the lancer and evo with success. with the SAFCII unit you have control over a 12 point fuel curve at both hi and lo rpm levels, however you have no control over timing. The new SAFC Neo has a "pro" 16 point edit curve but still no timing control. The unit is ideal for someone looking to make minor to moderate fuel trim changes throughout the powerband, but not recommended for someone looking for a perfect powerband tune. The unit will give you a more general tune, still plenty acceptable for turbo applications. NOTE - THE SAFC WILL NOT, I REPEAT NOT, LET YOU VTA. THE DECEL FUNCTION DESIGNED TO FIX THIS PROBLEM ONLY WORKS ON VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A HOT WIRE AIR FLOW SENSOR, WE HAVE A Karman Vortex AIR SYSTEM WHICH IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THIS FUNCTION
RRM Split Second Piggy - With the purchase of the piggy software from RRM and an appropriate laptop to piggyback cable you can edit the entire fuel map. Has more precise editing than the SAFC as well as the option to save multiple maps on your computer for future use. You can also control timing with the RRM piggyback. For more info visit this website.http://www.roadracemotorsports.com/piggyintro.htm
Greddy Emanage (bluebox) - Another piggy back like the RRM split second piggy back. Boasts the same editing capabilities as the RRM unit as well as the ability to tune your system to VTA, as well as control additional injectors or program for upgraded injectors. Some people have said that over time the emanage will burn out your coil packs, but this has not been proven and may have been due to poor installation. Many people run the system without this happening. Go here for more features...http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/ma..._manual/004.JPG
Your other options are unlimited, but also get into high $ since standalone is expensive. Both the RRM Piggy and the Emanage require moderate tuning knowledge to correctly operate however can be learned with patience and reading, the SAFC is a little more user friendly (especially the neo) however is that at the expense of more fine tuning capabilities.
Blow off valve options
The design of the mitsubishi airflow system is based off of the Karman Vortex Mass air flow meter, which reads the actual flowing air through a complex air metering device. Because of this, the unit CANNOT read pressurized air accurately. IF YOU PUT YOUR MAF ON THE PRESSURIZED SIDE OF YOUR INTAKE, YOU WILL RUN LEAN AT PARTIAL THROTTLE. Sooo, we need to keep the air flow sensor on the intake side of the turbo system, which causes a problem for blow off valves venting the pressurized air to the atmosphere. Because the air was already counted at the head of the system just after the filter, when this pressurized air is blown to the atmosphere the ECU still expects it there, and the car will run super rich during idle and shifts, causing erratic idle, and stalling. Therefore the BOV needs to be "recirculated" back to the intake tract after the MAF and before the turbo. This limits your BOV selection to those that have the ability to attach a hose to the outlet which can be rerouted back to the intake tract. The most popular upgrade that works right off the shelf is the greddy type s. The BOV outlet is the same size as stock (1.25") and will slip right onto the recirculation port. However for the type s and RS you will need a flange to attach it to the stock intercooler piping (which can be bought on ebay for a few dollars). The type RS can be used however you need to purchase the optional greddy recirculation kit to swap out the bell on the unit. Other BOV's like the SSQV and other similar units have been known to cause problems even though they can be recirculated. Also dual venting BOV's (those which have 2 air outlet ports, 1 for recirc, and 1 for VTA) do help with the stalling issue, but it does not eleviate the problem completely. I suggest the Type S or RS for an aftermarket upgrade. It provides a nice sound even with the recirculation, and is adjustable.
I'm tired of typing right now, but this is a good start, i'll add more later. If anyone has anything to add feel free
Heres a run down of the two most popular turbo kits out there....
1) RRM intercooled stage 1 kit - The most tried and true kit available for the lancer. Many years of research and use on customer cars. Kit consists of a t28 turbo set at 7psi, 12:1 ratio vortech FMU to control fuel management, all necessary piping, walbro 255lph fuel pump, bosch generic blow off valve (option for greddy type bovs), detailed install instructions, great customer support.
Other kits now available. This is not the only option. 16G turbos, tubular manifolds, etc.
Pros - Many years of research and customer support, kit is ready to go right out of the box, Pipes are all powdercoated and nice, kit is well put together and looks good.
Cons - A bit pricey, Doesnt use dedicated turbo manifold, uses up/downpipes
2) TSI intercooled kit - Originally designed for the mirage 4g93 engine, t25 turbo, 14:1 ratio fmu (with other options for fuel control), generic instructions if any, power on a budget, many people using it with good results
Pros - Less expensive than RRM, Overall decent kit, only minor modifications needed for fitment (average mechanical abilities and know how can get it working fine), less expensive than RRM, good for people who want to substitute parts or build off of the non intercooled TSI kit to customize a bit
Cons - Needs some modifications for fitment (downpipe needs extending, need a bov and flange, oil lines may need to be upgraded/lengthened, FMIC with the intercooled kit is too big, requires bumper cutting), fmu is ok, but recommend upgrading to better fuel management and 255 walbro too
Both of these kits are worth it, it just depends on how well you think you understand the workings of a turbo kit and how mechanically inclined you are. If you want a kit that will plug and play right out of the box, go with RRM, if you want a kit that will save you money, but require minor modification, go with TSI.
The RRM stage 2 upgrade for power over the 200hp mark at the wheels ditches the fmu and upgrades the injectors to 370cc RC units, installation of the preprogrammed stage 2 RRM piggy back, and upping the boost to 8 or 9psi.
FMU
The limits of a setup with an FMU and stock injectors with an upgraded fuel pump (which is a necessity with any turbo kit) is 7psi. Do not go over unless you swap to larger injectors and a tune, the pressure will not be able to keep up in the higher RPMs and boost levels and you will run lean with the FMU.
Intercooler
You can put whatever size intercooler you want on your system, the main concern is A) pressure loss, and B) fitment. The intercooler supplied with the RRM turbo kit (18x7x3) is generally the largest intercooler that will fit behind the stock bumper without major modification. It has the best flow rating for the application as well. Anything larger that that will run into a) fitment issues requirement modification of the bumpers and or supports, and b) greater pressure loss due to less efficiency for targeted boost levels
Fuel Upgrades
For the best control over your fuel delivery and the option to upgrade boost levels, it is recommended to use an upgraded injector/piggyback system for any boost levels above 7. You can use this for boost levels below 7, but it is not necessary unless you want to be in total control of your tune. Recommended injectors are 370cc units and above, but not exceeding around 450cc unless boost levels will be over 12 psi with upgraded internals. RC makes good injectors but if you are looking for a cheaper route any top feed saturated high impedence fuel injector will fit the bill. Stock 440cc WRX injectors are a direct swap into the lancer, requiring no longer fuel rail bolts or major modification.
Fuel Control
Tuning can be achieved via a wide range of options however there are a few more commonly used methods.
SAFC - The apexi SAFC unit is simple to use once you navigate your way through the controls, and is also very good for somebody looking to make changes on the fly. The unit has been used by many people in both the lancer and evo with success. with the SAFCII unit you have control over a 12 point fuel curve at both hi and lo rpm levels, however you have no control over timing. The new SAFC Neo has a "pro" 16 point edit curve but still no timing control. The unit is ideal for someone looking to make minor to moderate fuel trim changes throughout the powerband, but not recommended for someone looking for a perfect powerband tune. The unit will give you a more general tune, still plenty acceptable for turbo applications. NOTE - THE SAFC WILL NOT, I REPEAT NOT, LET YOU VTA. THE DECEL FUNCTION DESIGNED TO FIX THIS PROBLEM ONLY WORKS ON VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A HOT WIRE AIR FLOW SENSOR, WE HAVE A Karman Vortex AIR SYSTEM WHICH IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THIS FUNCTION
RRM Split Second Piggy - With the purchase of the piggy software from RRM and an appropriate laptop to piggyback cable you can edit the entire fuel map. Has more precise editing than the SAFC as well as the option to save multiple maps on your computer for future use. You can also control timing with the RRM piggyback. For more info visit this website.http://www.roadracemotorsports.com/piggyintro.htm
Greddy Emanage (bluebox) - Another piggy back like the RRM split second piggy back. Boasts the same editing capabilities as the RRM unit as well as the ability to tune your system to VTA, as well as control additional injectors or program for upgraded injectors. Some people have said that over time the emanage will burn out your coil packs, but this has not been proven and may have been due to poor installation. Many people run the system without this happening. Go here for more features...http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/ma..._manual/004.JPG
Your other options are unlimited, but also get into high $ since standalone is expensive. Both the RRM Piggy and the Emanage require moderate tuning knowledge to correctly operate however can be learned with patience and reading, the SAFC is a little more user friendly (especially the neo) however is that at the expense of more fine tuning capabilities.
Blow off valve options
The design of the mitsubishi airflow system is based off of the Karman Vortex Mass air flow meter, which reads the actual flowing air through a complex air metering device. Because of this, the unit CANNOT read pressurized air accurately. IF YOU PUT YOUR MAF ON THE PRESSURIZED SIDE OF YOUR INTAKE, YOU WILL RUN LEAN AT PARTIAL THROTTLE. Sooo, we need to keep the air flow sensor on the intake side of the turbo system, which causes a problem for blow off valves venting the pressurized air to the atmosphere. Because the air was already counted at the head of the system just after the filter, when this pressurized air is blown to the atmosphere the ECU still expects it there, and the car will run super rich during idle and shifts, causing erratic idle, and stalling. Therefore the BOV needs to be "recirculated" back to the intake tract after the MAF and before the turbo. This limits your BOV selection to those that have the ability to attach a hose to the outlet which can be rerouted back to the intake tract. The most popular upgrade that works right off the shelf is the greddy type s. The BOV outlet is the same size as stock (1.25") and will slip right onto the recirculation port. However for the type s and RS you will need a flange to attach it to the stock intercooler piping (which can be bought on ebay for a few dollars). The type RS can be used however you need to purchase the optional greddy recirculation kit to swap out the bell on the unit. Other BOV's like the SSQV and other similar units have been known to cause problems even though they can be recirculated. Also dual venting BOV's (those which have 2 air outlet ports, 1 for recirc, and 1 for VTA) do help with the stalling issue, but it does not eleviate the problem completely. I suggest the Type S or RS for an aftermarket upgrade. It provides a nice sound even with the recirculation, and is adjustable.
I'm tired of typing right now, but this is a good start, i'll add more later. If anyone has anything to add feel free
Last edited by Blacksheepdj; Aug 8, 2006 at 03:31 PM.
Aug 4, 2006, 01:26 PM
#2
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh yeah, heres some other things for turboing your car that are helpful while i'm thinkin aboot it.
Gauge Suggestions/necessities
Boost Gauge - Self explanitory. You NEED this to monitor your boost levels. Sure the kits come preset to a specific boost level, but if anything breaks, you will see it right away on the boost gauge. Also very helpful obviously when you want to start bumping things up a little. Easy installation, all it requires is power and ground, and then a vaccum line T'ed off from the engine bay.
Narrowband Air Fuel Gauge - You have two options here. 1) you can go with a narrowband air fuel gauge, which reads the signal from your stock o2 sensor in your downpipe. The stock o2 sensor is called a narrowband sensor because it only reads your a/f ratios from a range of like 15.0 to 14.0 or something close to that, so it is extremely narrow in it's ability to read. It is more used as a reference point. If you are pegged rich on the narrowband, it means you're running somewhere above a 13.5 fuel ratio or richer which is ok, not going to blow up. If you're lean, it means you're running lower than a 15 ratio which means back off. IT IS NOT however an accurate measure to be tuning your car. It is best used only as a reference point, kind of like the boost gauge. If something goes wrong, you will see it before you do damage.
Wideband Air Fuel Gauge - This is a slightly more complicated gauge, but worth it's weight in gold for an aftermarket turbocharged car. The Wideband system uses its own dedicated 2nd o2 sensor that you must have installed in the downpipe. The ideal place is just after the stock o2 sensor. The wideband o2 sensor has the ability to read a much "widerband" of a/f ratios than the stock o2 sensor. It reads closer from 9.0 to around 17.0. Which is much more useful. The added bonus is that in our vehicles, since the ecu is constantly adjusting the mixture during cruising the Wideband will still give you an exact number, where the narrowband will just bounce back and forth, hence why it is refferred to as a "light show". The wideband is essential in tuning the car with an piggy back fuel computer. It is the only completely accurate way to know that you are tuning in a safe direction. For Turbocharged cars the ideal AFR with the wideband at WOT full boost would be anywhere from 11-12afr. A few popular Wideband units are the AEM Uego, the Zeitronix from RRM, and the Innovate Standalone system. All extremely accurate.
EGT Gauge - Stands for Exhaust Gas Temperate gauge, also known as a pyrometer. Highly recommended if you will be running a narrowband a/f instead of a wideband unit. While the recommended ideal range for EGT at certain boost levels still remains in contention, the average is below 1450-1475F at WOT top of 4th gear full boost. Cruising should be between 1200 and1300F, and idle should be around 800-900F. These are just averages however, your egt may be different due to your tune. An AFR closer to 11 at full boost will result in a slightly lower EGT, while a leaner condition will drive you up. If your EGTs start to peak 1500 or higher, back off the gas because you are running too hot and detonation will occur. Easy to install. Requires drilling a hole in either the 1st or 2nd runner in the exhaust manifold before the turbo about 2-4 inches from the block. Screw in the temp fitting, run the wire to the gauge, done.
More to come
Gauge Suggestions/necessities
Boost Gauge - Self explanitory. You NEED this to monitor your boost levels. Sure the kits come preset to a specific boost level, but if anything breaks, you will see it right away on the boost gauge. Also very helpful obviously when you want to start bumping things up a little. Easy installation, all it requires is power and ground, and then a vaccum line T'ed off from the engine bay.
Narrowband Air Fuel Gauge - You have two options here. 1) you can go with a narrowband air fuel gauge, which reads the signal from your stock o2 sensor in your downpipe. The stock o2 sensor is called a narrowband sensor because it only reads your a/f ratios from a range of like 15.0 to 14.0 or something close to that, so it is extremely narrow in it's ability to read. It is more used as a reference point. If you are pegged rich on the narrowband, it means you're running somewhere above a 13.5 fuel ratio or richer which is ok, not going to blow up. If you're lean, it means you're running lower than a 15 ratio which means back off. IT IS NOT however an accurate measure to be tuning your car. It is best used only as a reference point, kind of like the boost gauge. If something goes wrong, you will see it before you do damage.
Wideband Air Fuel Gauge - This is a slightly more complicated gauge, but worth it's weight in gold for an aftermarket turbocharged car. The Wideband system uses its own dedicated 2nd o2 sensor that you must have installed in the downpipe. The ideal place is just after the stock o2 sensor. The wideband o2 sensor has the ability to read a much "widerband" of a/f ratios than the stock o2 sensor. It reads closer from 9.0 to around 17.0. Which is much more useful. The added bonus is that in our vehicles, since the ecu is constantly adjusting the mixture during cruising the Wideband will still give you an exact number, where the narrowband will just bounce back and forth, hence why it is refferred to as a "light show". The wideband is essential in tuning the car with an piggy back fuel computer. It is the only completely accurate way to know that you are tuning in a safe direction. For Turbocharged cars the ideal AFR with the wideband at WOT full boost would be anywhere from 11-12afr. A few popular Wideband units are the AEM Uego, the Zeitronix from RRM, and the Innovate Standalone system. All extremely accurate.
EGT Gauge - Stands for Exhaust Gas Temperate gauge, also known as a pyrometer. Highly recommended if you will be running a narrowband a/f instead of a wideband unit. While the recommended ideal range for EGT at certain boost levels still remains in contention, the average is below 1450-1475F at WOT top of 4th gear full boost. Cruising should be between 1200 and1300F, and idle should be around 800-900F. These are just averages however, your egt may be different due to your tune. An AFR closer to 11 at full boost will result in a slightly lower EGT, while a leaner condition will drive you up. If your EGTs start to peak 1500 or higher, back off the gas because you are running too hot and detonation will occur. Easy to install. Requires drilling a hole in either the 1st or 2nd runner in the exhaust manifold before the turbo about 2-4 inches from the block. Screw in the temp fitting, run the wire to the gauge, done.
More to come
Trending Topics
Aug 5, 2006, 06:42 PM
#9
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll add the writeup on the new 16g RRM setup, as well as the RPW turbo kits, although i'm still a little confused about what kind of fuel management they use since the site says "greddy emanage (supplied separately)". I'll take care of those writeups tomorrow if i have time, if not then def monday when i'm bored at work 
I dont know the first thing about the RIPP mods supercharger kit so someone else can chime in on that kit with the same style as what i used above
Just tryin to get everything into one thread without getting too overindulgent on fine details and arguments like a lot of the other turbo info threads. Just tryin to keep it simple, informative, and to the point. A good starting off point
I dont know the first thing about the RIPP mods supercharger kit so someone else can chime in on that kit with the same style as what i used above Just tryin to get everything into one thread without getting too overindulgent on fine details and arguments like a lot of the other turbo info threads. Just tryin to keep it simple, informative, and to the point. A good starting off point
Aug 5, 2006, 08:01 PM
#10
Evolving Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: socal
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the kit comes with a rising rate fuel regulator. u dont neccessarily need to tune to run it but of course it helps. emanage is good no matter what. anyone serious will go emanage or megasquirt.
Aug 6, 2006, 05:42 PM
#11
Evolving Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mobile, Al
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sicktght311
Just tryin to get everything into one thread without getting too overindulgent on fine details and arguments like a lot of the other turbo info threads. Just tryin to keep it simple, informative, and to the point. A good starting off point
for a great thread from Sicktght311.
Aug 8, 2006, 05:56 AM
#13
Evolving Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by crypto
wtf, did someone delete my post???
yes i agree a RIPP write up needs to be done
(thats what i post said the first time...hmmmm)
yes i agree a RIPP write up needs to be done
(thats what i post said the first time...hmmmm)
Aug 8, 2006, 09:55 AM
#14
Evolving Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: socal
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jeemybo
It's not clear what RIPP is making for the Lancer anymore. They only have the tuner kit listed on the website. So going that route means you are on your own for fuel and engine management. They have pretty much stopped posting on forums (including their own) so someone is probably going to have to call them to figure out what they are offering these days. When I last talked to them (in April) they told me they were moving away from full kits and were going to focus mostly on tuner stuff and their own tuning. I have mentioned
before that I think this is a bummer but what can you do.
before that I think this is a bummer but what can you do.
Aug 8, 2006, 03:28 PM
#15
EvoM Staff Alumni
iTrader: (88)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Concord Township, Ohio
Posts: 8,733
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Originally Posted by crypto
wtf, did someone delete my post???
yes i agree a RIPP write up needs to be done
(thats what i post said the first time...hmmmm)
yes i agree a RIPP write up needs to be done
(thats what i post said the first time...hmmmm)