Lancer Manual transmission driving techniques
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 858
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From: Cybertron
Back in '97 I paid $6,500 for my '86 944, and in '04 I paid $29,000 for the '99 Boxster. So, between the two cars I paid less than many people pay for a new SUV.
Despite not having much power, the 944 was a great car. Over 10 years it never let me down on the road, although it did put me in a bind once when the clutch failed going into turn 3 at Summit Point
. Given that the clucth had 230K miles at the time, I can't really fault it 
. Over those 10 years I did have my share of issues though: failed motor mounts, leaking power steering hoses, failed clutch slave cylinder, etc. Fortunately, I could do a lot of the work myself and that saved a lot of money. It seems to me that most mechanics see "Porsche" and the dollar signs in their eyes light up!
I bought the Boxster with 17,XXX miles on it, so it was practically a new car. It is not my daily driver, and it just crossed 30K miles a month or so ago. It's a really sweet car. Still not a power hog, but really a joy to drive. It's a lot of fun in an autocross, but I'm still debating whether or not to track the car. I'm tall and don't fit in the car with a helmet on and the top up (I can autocross with the top down). Also, my head sticks up above the roll bars, and Porsche Club would make me modify the car to track it. Furthermore, if I killed the 944 on the track it wouldn't have been that big of a financial hit. If I were to have a serious incident on the track with the Boxster, that would hurt (in the wallet and possibly in other ways).
Back on topic, on the way home from work last night I did some experimenting with my Lancer
. On a wide, dry, two-lane road with no other cars in sight, I took the car to 60 MPH and stomped the brakes. The ABS kicked in immediately, and the car decelerated dramatically but under control. The rear end did fishtail a tiny bit (probably not more than 15 degrees of its axis), but nothing in any way frightening. I repeated this experiment a second time with the same result. Being a scientist (a PhD in biology), I was temped to do the other part of the experiment: stopping the car from 60 with downshifting. I quickly decided not to do this part of the experiment, though, for two reasons: (1) I bought the Lancer on July 13 and it now has 2200 miles on it; I really don't want to toast the drivetrain at this point. (2) The fact that the ABS kicked in immediately proves my point that downshifting would provide no added benefit. Short of steering the car into a wall, a tree, or another vehicle, you simply cannot slow the car at a rate greater than what the ABS will allow. Since the brakes take you to that limit instantly, that's the end of the story.
I'll go back to something Cosworth said previously about the tires and the analogy of pushing someone over. It is an interesting take, but the analogy does break down. First off, let's simplify the situation and assume the car in question is always traveling in a straight line (we'll take spins, etc. out of the picture). In a normally functioning car, tires are what limits the ability of the car to decelerate. That's just the way it is. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that stepping on the brakes can easily lock up the wheels (in a non-ABS car) or kick in your ABS. If you put old VW Beetle brakes in a car with Dodge Viper sized wheels and slick tires, then that would change. I imagine you could not lock up the wheels in such a car. But, in normal cars, the friction between the tires and the road limits how fast you can stop.
Consider a car that is moving forward in a straight line and braking, the force of the road acting via friction on a tire on the right side of the car turns the wheel clockwise. The brakes act on the rotors to oppose the force exerted on the wheel by the road. At the point when the force of the brakes exceeds the force exerted by the road, the wheel stops turning and skids (the job of ABS is to reduce force exerted by the brakes just before the point where the wheel stops turning). Cosworth's pushing analogy breaks down because the wheel doesn't care how smoothly or "unsmoothly" we get to that point. Rather, it's basic physics. If the force from the road is greater than the opposing force from the brakes, then the wheel turns. If the force exerted by the brakes is greater, then the wheel locks. That being said, a person in a non-ABS car is more likely to pass that limit when braking in a panic than when braking smoothly, but the limit doesn't change. Conversely, if I wanted to, I could lock the brakes on my 944 perfectly well by braking smoothly to the point where I exceeded the traction limit of the car. After some practice, I got very good at hitting those brakes really hard without hitting that limit. A car with ABS simply cannot be "pushed over" as the ABS will prevent the car from reaching the traction limit. (Actually some cars, like my Boxster, will allow the wheels to lock a little bit.)
OK, so my full-time job is as a biology teacher. Being a car nut and a teacher, I get into this sort of thing
.
Back to work
Despite not having much power, the 944 was a great car. Over 10 years it never let me down on the road, although it did put me in a bind once when the clutch failed going into turn 3 at Summit Point
. Given that the clucth had 230K miles at the time, I can't really fault it . Over those 10 years I did have my share of issues though: failed motor mounts, leaking power steering hoses, failed clutch slave cylinder, etc. Fortunately, I could do a lot of the work myself and that saved a lot of money. It seems to me that most mechanics see "Porsche" and the dollar signs in their eyes light up!I bought the Boxster with 17,XXX miles on it, so it was practically a new car. It is not my daily driver, and it just crossed 30K miles a month or so ago. It's a really sweet car. Still not a power hog, but really a joy to drive. It's a lot of fun in an autocross, but I'm still debating whether or not to track the car. I'm tall and don't fit in the car with a helmet on and the top up (I can autocross with the top down). Also, my head sticks up above the roll bars, and Porsche Club would make me modify the car to track it. Furthermore, if I killed the 944 on the track it wouldn't have been that big of a financial hit. If I were to have a serious incident on the track with the Boxster, that would hurt (in the wallet and possibly in other ways).
Back on topic, on the way home from work last night I did some experimenting with my Lancer
. On a wide, dry, two-lane road with no other cars in sight, I took the car to 60 MPH and stomped the brakes. The ABS kicked in immediately, and the car decelerated dramatically but under control. The rear end did fishtail a tiny bit (probably not more than 15 degrees of its axis), but nothing in any way frightening. I repeated this experiment a second time with the same result. Being a scientist (a PhD in biology), I was temped to do the other part of the experiment: stopping the car from 60 with downshifting. I quickly decided not to do this part of the experiment, though, for two reasons: (1) I bought the Lancer on July 13 and it now has 2200 miles on it; I really don't want to toast the drivetrain at this point. (2) The fact that the ABS kicked in immediately proves my point that downshifting would provide no added benefit. Short of steering the car into a wall, a tree, or another vehicle, you simply cannot slow the car at a rate greater than what the ABS will allow. Since the brakes take you to that limit instantly, that's the end of the story.I'll go back to something Cosworth said previously about the tires and the analogy of pushing someone over. It is an interesting take, but the analogy does break down. First off, let's simplify the situation and assume the car in question is always traveling in a straight line (we'll take spins, etc. out of the picture). In a normally functioning car, tires are what limits the ability of the car to decelerate. That's just the way it is. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that stepping on the brakes can easily lock up the wheels (in a non-ABS car) or kick in your ABS. If you put old VW Beetle brakes in a car with Dodge Viper sized wheels and slick tires, then that would change. I imagine you could not lock up the wheels in such a car. But, in normal cars, the friction between the tires and the road limits how fast you can stop.
Consider a car that is moving forward in a straight line and braking, the force of the road acting via friction on a tire on the right side of the car turns the wheel clockwise. The brakes act on the rotors to oppose the force exerted on the wheel by the road. At the point when the force of the brakes exceeds the force exerted by the road, the wheel stops turning and skids (the job of ABS is to reduce force exerted by the brakes just before the point where the wheel stops turning). Cosworth's pushing analogy breaks down because the wheel doesn't care how smoothly or "unsmoothly" we get to that point. Rather, it's basic physics. If the force from the road is greater than the opposing force from the brakes, then the wheel turns. If the force exerted by the brakes is greater, then the wheel locks. That being said, a person in a non-ABS car is more likely to pass that limit when braking in a panic than when braking smoothly, but the limit doesn't change. Conversely, if I wanted to, I could lock the brakes on my 944 perfectly well by braking smoothly to the point where I exceeded the traction limit of the car. After some practice, I got very good at hitting those brakes really hard without hitting that limit. A car with ABS simply cannot be "pushed over" as the ABS will prevent the car from reaching the traction limit. (Actually some cars, like my Boxster, will allow the wheels to lock a little bit.)
OK, so my full-time job is as a biology teacher. Being a car nut and a teacher, I get into this sort of thing
.Back to work
wow. I think my beard just went a little white.
When you said you were a scientist in Biology, i was like, what has Biology got anything to do with it?
It's physics. But I see you stated that. And as a scientist, you can create a theory and then experiment and record your results over SEVERAL tests in order to come with a more accurate result.
I study Physics, myself.
But as a scientist, you fall in the same trap as most scientists do.
How is it said, GOING OFF ON A TANGENT?
The guy is asking about downshifting.
remember?
So second round is on you.
Let's stay on topic about the proper methods on downshifting.
So thank you for all that info. But it was...
Gracias (spanish)
Merci (french)
Kamsamnida (Korean)
Origato (Japanese)
Danke (german)
Grazie (italian)
Spaziba (russian)
Sien shien (chinese-mandarin dialect)
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Lothian, MD
This Bud's on you
The original post on this thread asked whether you should use "engine braking" (i.e., downshifting) to slow the car or whether you should use the brakes to slow the car. The original post was not about "methods on downshifting."
Seems like my posts (other than the comments on my 944 and Boxster, which were) are absolutely relevant to the questions raised in the original post.
So, chino, I think the next round is back to you!
Seems like my posts (other than the comments on my 944 and Boxster, which were
) are absolutely relevant to the questions raised in the original post.So, chino, I think the next round is back to you!
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
From: Cybertron
Lancer Manual transmission driving techniques
To Begin with, this is the name of the thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys,
This lancer 2008 GTS was my first manual car.
Im loving manual at the moment and want to keep learning more and improving my driving skill.
Few questions for you manual experts out there lol.
Engine breaking.
I find downshifting to be difficult and always it jerks the car. I assume this is normal becuase you are revving the car higher than before? Is this technique recommended for saving your brakes?
(this is a question bout downshiftin) This is the primary and the brakes is secondary.
Clutch breaking,
When you are clutched in and you break you have almost no resistance so it should put more stress on the brakes if u consistently break from neutral when compared to Automatic tranmission? So inactual fact you will wear out your brakes faster than AUTO when you drive like this?
This is a question about the brakes.
And what about the combination of the two, downshifting and braking. Since i do realize it is a safety concern if you are slowing down and you dont actuate the brakes meaning your brake lights dont turn on. This is also dangerous becuase drivers dont "see" you slowing down. So the combination of downshifting and tapping of brakes, is that a recommended technique?
(This is a combination of both)
Basically. MT drivers, how do you brake?
Now, here we begin.
So I was actually correct. Unless we are saying that techniques and methods are 100% percent different from each other or are they similar concepts?
But since you are a scientist, your obviously going to say they are different. Unless you wanna BS someone or confuse someone to believe that you are right, which scientist do, because most of their ideas are nothing but theories of a whole. Because not one scientist can explain the whole just a way a part works; then you will say they are the same.
LOL!
I got your point about downshifting and I think that guy who asked; ditched us.
LOL
Let all get a beer.
Cheers.
A lil bored myself.
Apologies to any thread moderators.
Peace.
To Begin with, this is the name of the thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys,
This lancer 2008 GTS was my first manual car.
Im loving manual at the moment and want to keep learning more and improving my driving skill.
Few questions for you manual experts out there lol.
Engine breaking.
I find downshifting to be difficult and always it jerks the car. I assume this is normal becuase you are revving the car higher than before? Is this technique recommended for saving your brakes?
(this is a question bout downshiftin) This is the primary and the brakes is secondary.
Clutch breaking,
When you are clutched in and you break you have almost no resistance so it should put more stress on the brakes if u consistently break from neutral when compared to Automatic tranmission? So inactual fact you will wear out your brakes faster than AUTO when you drive like this?
This is a question about the brakes.
And what about the combination of the two, downshifting and braking. Since i do realize it is a safety concern if you are slowing down and you dont actuate the brakes meaning your brake lights dont turn on. This is also dangerous becuase drivers dont "see" you slowing down. So the combination of downshifting and tapping of brakes, is that a recommended technique?
(This is a combination of both)
Basically. MT drivers, how do you brake?
Now, here we begin.
So I was actually correct. Unless we are saying that techniques and methods are 100% percent different from each other or are they similar concepts?
But since you are a scientist, your obviously going to say they are different. Unless you wanna BS someone or confuse someone to believe that you are right, which scientist do, because most of their ideas are nothing but theories of a whole. Because not one scientist can explain the whole just a way a part works; then you will say they are the same.
LOL!
I got your point about downshifting and I think that guy who asked; ditched us.
LOL
Let all get a beer.
Cheers.
A lil bored myself.
Apologies to any thread moderators.
Peace.
Last edited by chino ali; Aug 29, 2007 at 10:21 AM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Lothian, MD
I interpreted the original post as asking whether you should slow a manual transmission car with the engine or with the brakes, and that's clearly the question I attempted to answer in my posts (with my opinion on the matter). I'm not really sure why you found it necessary to say that my posts were "GOING OFF ON A TANGENT" and to hit me with the "Off Topic" smiley.
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
From: Cybertron
I am tired.
The Tangent comment was based on your whole experiment on using brakes.
The original question was either to downshift to slow the car or use brakes.
That's it.
Your whole premise about the ART OF BRAKES was going off the subject.
(OFF TOPIC)
AND your experimentation on it was a lil much more info then anyone needed especially when we are not specifically speaking of brakes only.
AND everyone knows it is your opinion.
But the way you replied back to me, it seems like your trying to convince me and everyone else, that you are stating a fact.
So if you are getting upset,
save the drama for your mama.
I even offered a cyber beer and yet, you felt inclined to point out what you thought was un-necessary, in which I agree as well.
All of it now seems un-necessary.
Now
All in good fun, Mark.
The Tangent comment was based on your whole experiment on using brakes.
The original question was either to downshift to slow the car or use brakes.
That's it.
Your whole premise about the ART OF BRAKES was going off the subject.
(OFF TOPIC)
AND your experimentation on it was a lil much more info then anyone needed especially when we are not specifically speaking of brakes only.
AND everyone knows it is your opinion.
But the way you replied back to me, it seems like your trying to convince me and everyone else, that you are stating a fact.
So if you are getting upset,
save the drama for your mama.
I even offered a cyber beer and yet, you felt inclined to point out what you thought was un-necessary, in which I agree as well.
All of it now seems un-necessary.
Now
All in good fun, Mark.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Lothian, MD
Cos,
I'm fairly impressed with the brakes and handling of this Lancer, especially given that I paid $16,800 for this car ($18,000 even with taxes, tags, etc.). How it would handle the demands of a track, I don't know. The bigger brakes of the GTS will presumably offer more resistance to fade than the ES brakes. My honey-do list put a hurting on my autocrossing this summer, but I think one day soon I'll have to leave the Boxster at home and try the Lancer at an autocross. That won't really test the brakes, but it will certainly test the suspension and acceleration.
Of course, on a thread about downshifting vs. using brakes I'm not supposed to discuss brakes, and I'm sure my remarks about suspension and autocross are way off base.
Cheers,
Mark
I'm fairly impressed with the brakes and handling of this Lancer, especially given that I paid $16,800 for this car ($18,000 even with taxes, tags, etc.). How it would handle the demands of a track, I don't know. The bigger brakes of the GTS will presumably offer more resistance to fade than the ES brakes. My honey-do list put a hurting on my autocrossing this summer, but I think one day soon I'll have to leave the Boxster at home and try the Lancer at an autocross. That won't really test the brakes, but it will certainly test the suspension and acceleration.
Of course, on a thread about downshifting vs. using brakes I'm not supposed to discuss brakes, and I'm sure my remarks about suspension and autocross are way off base.
Cheers,
Mark
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
From: YYC, Ab, Ca
Cos,
I'm fairly impressed with the brakes and handling of this Lancer, especially given that I paid $16,800 for this car ($18,000 even with taxes, tags, etc.). How it would handle the demands of a track, I don't know. The bigger brakes of the GTS will presumably offer more resistance to fade than the ES brakes. My honey-do list put a hurting on my autocrossing this summer, but I think one day soon I'll have to leave the Boxster at home and try the Lancer at an autocross. That won't really test the brakes, but it will certainly test the suspension and acceleration.
Of course, on a thread about downshifting vs. using brakes I'm not supposed to discuss brakes, and I'm sure my remarks about suspension and autocross are way off base.
Cheers,
Mark
I'm fairly impressed with the brakes and handling of this Lancer, especially given that I paid $16,800 for this car ($18,000 even with taxes, tags, etc.). How it would handle the demands of a track, I don't know. The bigger brakes of the GTS will presumably offer more resistance to fade than the ES brakes. My honey-do list put a hurting on my autocrossing this summer, but I think one day soon I'll have to leave the Boxster at home and try the Lancer at an autocross. That won't really test the brakes, but it will certainly test the suspension and acceleration.
Of course, on a thread about downshifting vs. using brakes I'm not supposed to discuss brakes, and I'm sure my remarks about suspension and autocross are way off base.
Cheers,
Mark
What do you think of that mark? I will admit, you are more level headed when it comes to car stuff, I know all this but just can't always wrap my head around it all.
Brendan
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Lothian, MD
Cos,
I think I get where you're coming from. Suppose you're slowing down, but not planning to stop (e.g., to execute a turn). You will want to downshift in order to have torque at your rear wheels to accelerate again. However, as I think we are all agreeing at this point, you just don't want the engine to slow the car as you engage the lower gear. In a manual, this can be accomplished simply by getting the revs up with the right foot before releasing the clutch. I'm pretty sure this is what you're describing, and it is simple as long as you are executing the downshift after you have finished braking. Doing this while still braking requires the much-talked-about heel-toe downshift.
By the way, anyone taken my advice yet and hammered on the brake pedal to see what your brakes will do???
Cheers,
Mark
I think I get where you're coming from. Suppose you're slowing down, but not planning to stop (e.g., to execute a turn). You will want to downshift in order to have torque at your rear wheels to accelerate again. However, as I think we are all agreeing at this point, you just don't want the engine to slow the car as you engage the lower gear. In a manual, this can be accomplished simply by getting the revs up with the right foot before releasing the clutch. I'm pretty sure this is what you're describing, and it is simple as long as you are executing the downshift after you have finished braking. Doing this while still braking requires the much-talked-about heel-toe downshift.
By the way, anyone taken my advice yet and hammered on the brake pedal to see what your brakes will do???
Cheers,
Mark
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
From: YYC, Ab, Ca
Cos,
I think I get where you're coming from. Suppose you're slowing down, but not planning to stop (e.g., to execute a turn). You will want to downshift in order to have torque at your rear wheels to accelerate again. However, as I think we are all agreeing at this point, you just don't want the engine to slow the car as you engage the lower gear. In a manual, this can be accomplished simply by getting the revs up with the right foot before releasing the clutch. I'm pretty sure this is what you're describing, and it is simple as long as you are executing the downshift after you have finished braking. Doing this while still braking requires the much-talked-about heel-toe downshift.
By the way, anyone taken my advice yet and hammered on the brake pedal to see what your brakes will do???
Cheers,
Mark
I think I get where you're coming from. Suppose you're slowing down, but not planning to stop (e.g., to execute a turn). You will want to downshift in order to have torque at your rear wheels to accelerate again. However, as I think we are all agreeing at this point, you just don't want the engine to slow the car as you engage the lower gear. In a manual, this can be accomplished simply by getting the revs up with the right foot before releasing the clutch. I'm pretty sure this is what you're describing, and it is simple as long as you are executing the downshift after you have finished braking. Doing this while still braking requires the much-talked-about heel-toe downshift.
By the way, anyone taken my advice yet and hammered on the brake pedal to see what your brakes will do???
Cheers,
Mark
I tried to hammer on the brakes but it slowed so fast I couldn't get the ABS to kick in, a hell of a lot better than my old car.
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
From: Cybertron
Cos,
I think I get where you're coming from. Suppose you're slowing down, but not planning to stop (e.g., to execute a turn). You will want to downshift in order to have torque at your rear wheels to accelerate again. However, as I think we are all agreeing at this point, you just don't want the engine to slow the car as you engage the lower gear. In a manual, this can be accomplished simply by getting the revs up with the right foot before releasing the clutch. I'm pretty sure this is what you're describing, and it is simple as long as you are executing the downshift after you have finished braking. Doing this while still braking requires the much-talked-about heel-toe downshift.
By the way, anyone taken my advice yet and hammered on the brake pedal to see what your brakes will do???
Cheers,
Mark
I think I get where you're coming from. Suppose you're slowing down, but not planning to stop (e.g., to execute a turn). You will want to downshift in order to have torque at your rear wheels to accelerate again. However, as I think we are all agreeing at this point, you just don't want the engine to slow the car as you engage the lower gear. In a manual, this can be accomplished simply by getting the revs up with the right foot before releasing the clutch. I'm pretty sure this is what you're describing, and it is simple as long as you are executing the downshift after you have finished braking. Doing this while still braking requires the much-talked-about heel-toe downshift.
By the way, anyone taken my advice yet and hammered on the brake pedal to see what your brakes will do???
Cheers,
Mark
I just made a discovery, the pedal on the left to the gas, is the brake pedal!
OMG!
Who thought of that? Was it you, MH?
I guess i will stop using my feet on the asphalt.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Lothian, MD
Well, being an expert in this area, I can say that most racing venues (such as Summit Point and Watkins Glen) discourage what is commonly known as the "Flintstone" method of braking. The main reason being that a combination of flesh and blood on the track makes the surface slick and increases the likelihood that other cars may spin.
Cos, your ABS probably was active. In my Lancer the ABS is very unobtrusive. In comparison, the ABS in my Suburban is awful and the pulsing as the system repeatedly engages and disengages the brakes is rather disconcerting.
Cos, your ABS probably was active. In my Lancer the ABS is very unobtrusive. In comparison, the ABS in my Suburban is awful and the pulsing as the system repeatedly engages and disengages the brakes is rather disconcerting.
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
From: Cybertron
Well, being an expert in this area, I can say that most racing venues (such as Summit Point and Watkins Glen) discourage what is commonly known as the "Flintstone" method of braking. The main reason being that a combination of flesh and blood on the track makes the surface slick and increases the likelihood that other cars may spin.
Cos, your ABS probably was active. In my Lancer the ABS is very unobtrusive. In comparison, the ABS in my Suburban is awful and the pulsing as the system repeatedly engages and disengages the brakes is rather disconcerting.
Cos, your ABS probably was active. In my Lancer the ABS is very unobtrusive. In comparison, the ABS in my Suburban is awful and the pulsing as the system repeatedly engages and disengages the brakes is rather disconcerting.
Silly a**.
Yeah, the ABS works very well in the Lancer. I notices that as I 'hammered' down on that 2nd pedal that I so recently discovered.
While certain other cars, there is that pulse that can frighten you, almost give you the feeling like it's going to fall out on you.