Smike's FRS Test Drive
I recall reading that a while ago, this is also true of the Mustang having similar lap times to the M3. I do know that I read that bit about the Mustang in a recent issue of GRM.
Last edited by golgo13; Aug 30, 2012 at 09:25 PM.
This.
Are we in Bizarro world? Have you driven a Genesis coupe? It is a total shapile. Its heavy, doesn't handle well, and although its a highly disguised 4B11, the ECU tuning cripples it on upshift, and has a poor transmission.
On to the Mustang, I get that the 5.0 Coyote motor raises the S197 up a lot, but let's call a spade a spade. That chassis is heavy, solid axle, and terribly flexy. For easy proof, put a floor jack a foot behind the front wheel, raise the car up a foot (heck, maybe even 18"), and one wheel will be in the air, while the other three are on the ground. Do that in an FR-S or an Evo, and you'll pick up the entire side of the car.
A stock V6 Mustang, though, is a hairdresser's car, still complete with 112mph speed limiter even in the 2013 model.
The Miata leans and rolls way more than the older iterations did. It's a ragtop, and although very good handling, it's nowhere near as flat as an FR-S. Lesser power, and Mazdas are marginally built these days, with very low headroom for upgrade potential.
The FR-S is almost a full THOUSAND pounds less than a V6 Mustang, and 700 less than a Genesis coupe. The Scion's power is lackluster, but it kicks the everliving shat out of both of them in chassis dynamics. Unbiased (and un-fanboi) driving of all three cars will bear this out after the first high speed corner. It's a feather in transitions, and the Mustang and Genesis are pigs in comparison.
Are we in Bizarro world? Have you driven a Genesis coupe? It is a total shapile. Its heavy, doesn't handle well, and although its a highly disguised 4B11, the ECU tuning cripples it on upshift, and has a poor transmission.
On to the Mustang, I get that the 5.0 Coyote motor raises the S197 up a lot, but let's call a spade a spade. That chassis is heavy, solid axle, and terribly flexy. For easy proof, put a floor jack a foot behind the front wheel, raise the car up a foot (heck, maybe even 18"), and one wheel will be in the air, while the other three are on the ground. Do that in an FR-S or an Evo, and you'll pick up the entire side of the car.
A stock V6 Mustang, though, is a hairdresser's car, still complete with 112mph speed limiter even in the 2013 model.
The Miata leans and rolls way more than the older iterations did. It's a ragtop, and although very good handling, it's nowhere near as flat as an FR-S. Lesser power, and Mazdas are marginally built these days, with very low headroom for upgrade potential.
The FR-S is almost a full THOUSAND pounds less than a V6 Mustang, and 700 less than a Genesis coupe. The Scion's power is lackluster, but it kicks the everliving shat out of both of them in chassis dynamics. Unbiased (and un-fanboi) driving of all three cars will bear this out after the first high speed corner. It's a feather in transitions, and the Mustang and Genesis are pigs in comparison.
Don't get me wrong, I like mustangs, but there's more to a car than laptimes...
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: somewhere testing various tires, brakes, and suspensions.
Are we in Bizarro world? Have you driven a Genesis coupe? It is a total shapile. Its heavy, doesn't handle well, and although its a highly disguised 4B11, the ECU tuning cripples it on upshift, and has a poor transmission.
On to the Mustang, I get that the 5.0 Coyote motor raises the S197 up a lot, but let's call a spade a spade. That chassis is heavy, solid axle, and terribly flexy. For easy proof, put a floor jack a foot behind the front wheel, raise the car up a foot (heck, maybe even 18"), and one wheel will be in the air, while the other three are on the ground. Do that in an FR-S or an Evo, and you'll pick up the entire side of the car.
A stock V6 Mustang, though, is a hairdresser's car, still complete with 112mph speed limiter even in the 2013 model.
The Miata leans and rolls way more than the older iterations did. It's a ragtop, and although very good handling, it's nowhere near as flat as an FR-S. Lesser power, and Mazdas are marginally built these days, with very low headroom for upgrade potential.
The FR-S is almost a full THOUSAND pounds less than a V6 Mustang, and 700 less than a Genesis coupe. The Scion's power is lackluster, but it kicks the everliving shat out of both of them in chassis dynamics. Unbiased (and un-fanboi) driving of all three cars will bear this out after the first high speed corner. It's a feather in transitions, and the Mustang and Genesis are pigs in comparison.
On to the Mustang, I get that the 5.0 Coyote motor raises the S197 up a lot, but let's call a spade a spade. That chassis is heavy, solid axle, and terribly flexy. For easy proof, put a floor jack a foot behind the front wheel, raise the car up a foot (heck, maybe even 18"), and one wheel will be in the air, while the other three are on the ground. Do that in an FR-S or an Evo, and you'll pick up the entire side of the car.
A stock V6 Mustang, though, is a hairdresser's car, still complete with 112mph speed limiter even in the 2013 model.
The Miata leans and rolls way more than the older iterations did. It's a ragtop, and although very good handling, it's nowhere near as flat as an FR-S. Lesser power, and Mazdas are marginally built these days, with very low headroom for upgrade potential.
The FR-S is almost a full THOUSAND pounds less than a V6 Mustang, and 700 less than a Genesis coupe. The Scion's power is lackluster, but it kicks the everliving shat out of both of them in chassis dynamics. Unbiased (and un-fanboi) driving of all three cars will bear this out after the first high speed corner. It's a feather in transitions, and the Mustang and Genesis are pigs in comparison.
Seth, you're flat out wrong on the chassis. I jack up side to side with 1 pick up point. Just behind the front wheel and it lifts both f/r wheels. Chassis is stiff. You're confusing it with the SN95/99.
Everyone has been saying "well, if I get a FRS; I'll be modding this or that." So spades to spades. That's fair game to do the same to any other car we're talking about here. Give me a FRS with re-tune, suspension, and brakes and put it up against my TTC prepped S197. First off it FRS is going to be a TTE car at best. Secondly, AX or track, its going to be beaten like the redheaded stepchild that nobody loves.
Cough...retractable hardtop Miata...
You're confused on body roll. You cannot be board stiff. It wont handle well. The current Miata still has balance and sets in a turn. And its still one of the top SCCA/NASA classes.
Again, so what? It gets worse MPG. It has no "it" factor. Tell me why its better? And its 2800. My car is 3400 (yes, confirmed on corner scales...and its 54f/46r with 50/50 side to side...weight is balanced. Tell me why you think weight is better here? Its the ONLY thing the FRS wins in...but for what gain? Its slow, its MPG is not as good, and its chassis is as good as the Mustangs.
Warm...when you going to go test drive one of these? Doit.
You're confused on body roll. You cannot be board stiff. It wont handle well.
Again, so what? It gets worse MPG. It has no "it" factor. Tell me why its better? And its 2800. My car is 3400 (yes, confirmed on corner scales...and its 54f/46r with 50/50 side to side...weight is balanced. Tell me why you think weight is better here? Its the ONLY thing the FRS wins in...but for what gain? Its slow, its MPG is not as good, and its chassis is as good as the Mustangs.
Are we comparing your modded Mustang to a stock FR-S now, or stock to stock? I looked, and I'm seeing 2700 vs 3500 stock, so more like 800 lbs, sorry I exaggerated a bit there.On to the chassis thing, I put a spare tire on the front of an 05 Mustang GT, and the back tire was glued to the pavement. I'm pretty sure we picked up your car with my floor jack in my garage and saw the same thing when we were looking at stuff, but it's been a couple years.
Yep, GT v. M3 are within tenths of each other. Again, chassis dynamics anyone?
Stop drinking that Rustang nanoprobe kool aid, it's obscured your vision and is going to kill you.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: somewhere testing various tires, brakes, and suspensions.
Subjective (and just plain wrong on exhaust note by the way, unless you think Chewbacca in heat is a nice noise).
It did handle well. I won't pretend like I can drive to your level, but I pushed it pretty hard because I knew to read how to turn the traction control off before taking it out.
I'm pretty sure I already told you why I think it's better in my little review. Are we comparing your modded Mustang to a stock FR-S now, or stock to stock? I looked, and I'm seeing 2700 vs 3500 stock, so more like 800 lbs, sorry I exaggerated a bit there.
On to the chassis thing, I put a spare tire on the front of an 05 Mustang GT, and the back tire was glued to the pavement. I'm pretty sure we picked up your car with my floor jack in my garage and saw the same thing when we were looking at stuff, but it's been a couple years.
Engine, period. The 5.0 Coyote is a demon with torque everywhere, and low end/midrange that the S65 can't match due to a liter less displacement. If you think the S197 solid axle chassis is in the same league with the E90/E92, your kool aid has Borg nanoprobes in it.
I'll leave it with this. Those two bolded words should never, _ever_, appear next to each other in a sentence.
Stop drinking that Rustang nanoprobe kool aid, it's obscured your vision and is going to kill you.
It did handle well. I won't pretend like I can drive to your level, but I pushed it pretty hard because I knew to read how to turn the traction control off before taking it out.
I'm pretty sure I already told you why I think it's better in my little review.
Are we comparing your modded Mustang to a stock FR-S now, or stock to stock? I looked, and I'm seeing 2700 vs 3500 stock, so more like 800 lbs, sorry I exaggerated a bit there.On to the chassis thing, I put a spare tire on the front of an 05 Mustang GT, and the back tire was glued to the pavement. I'm pretty sure we picked up your car with my floor jack in my garage and saw the same thing when we were looking at stuff, but it's been a couple years.
Engine, period. The 5.0 Coyote is a demon with torque everywhere, and low end/midrange that the S65 can't match due to a liter less displacement. If you think the S197 solid axle chassis is in the same league with the E90/E92, your kool aid has Borg nanoprobes in it.
I'll leave it with this. Those two bolded words should never, _ever_, appear next to each other in a sentence.
Stop drinking that Rustang nanoprobe kool aid, it's obscured your vision and is going to kill you.
You only knew about that after talking with me.
Nope. I have not modified my weight in any way on my car.
Do you know what suspension travel is? Droop travel and how stiff a chassis are -- two completely different things.
Oh, by-the-way:
Smike 1, Noize 0
How would you like your shoe cooked? Broiled maybe?
E92 has a 400hp v8. Coyote is a 400hp v8. I've tracked in both. Yep. They run in the same classes in NASA (A) and are evenly matched to run with each other.
So SRA? IRS is not magic. And does not make or break handling.
Last edited by Smike; Aug 31, 2012 at 07:55 AM.
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From: San Antonio, TX
Too single dimensional.
It's like that pretty dumb blonde we all know. Sure, easy on eyes, but when you look close you see a lot of make-up, push-up bras, no brains, and the voice of Anne Ramsey.
It just lacks mojo. I raced low hp cars for years. They can have spunk and character.
Noize, you're older than I am. Put down the Fast and Furious DVDs.
And I though the 08+ Lancer and X had too light of clutches as well. Go out and drive a C5, 370, or Mustang. That's good clutch.
I'm with Jrod and Gene. Just lacks the "it" factor.
It's like that pretty dumb blonde we all know. Sure, easy on eyes, but when you look close you see a lot of make-up, push-up bras, no brains, and the voice of Anne Ramsey.
It just lacks mojo. I raced low hp cars for years. They can have spunk and character.
Noize, you're older than I am. Put down the Fast and Furious DVDs.
And I though the 08+ Lancer and X had too light of clutches as well. Go out and drive a C5, 370, or Mustang. That's good clutch.
I'm with Jrod and Gene. Just lacks the "it" factor.
The first comment was by a mod and agreeing to the comment
My local dealer has sold a the couple BRZ's that have came in. Going for a couple grand over sticker also.
Saw this youtube video yesterday. The wording this owner (BRZ Version) used was "drama":
http://youtu.be/j_8TAf6yEMg
My local dealer has sold a the couple BRZ's that have came in. Going for a couple grand over sticker also.
Saw this youtube video yesterday. The wording this owner (BRZ Version) used was "drama":
http://youtu.be/j_8TAf6yEMg
To me he contradicts himself every few sentences.
Also, you don't "consider" a GTR and then buy a BRZ. Sorry I just don't see that happening.
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From: San Antonio, TX
I also thought the same when he mentioned GTR. Pretty sure he just mentioned that to try and look good. Doubt he could afford one. But he doesn't sound very impressed with the BRZ after driving it around for awhile.
I didnt want to mention about his likelihood of being in the drama club. I also thought the same when he mentioned GTR. Pretty sure he just mentioned that to try and look good. Doubt he could afford one. But he doesn't sound very impressed with the BRZ after driving it around for awhile.
I also thought the same when he mentioned GTR. Pretty sure he just mentioned that to try and look good. Doubt he could afford one. But he doesn't sound very impressed with the BRZ after driving it around for awhile.My head actually hurts trying to wrap my head around this statement. Any car could feel too good in "everyday driving.
Am I wrong?
Originally Posted by Noize
That chassis is heavy, solid axle, and terribly flexy. For easy proof, put a floor jack a foot behind the front wheel, raise the car up a foot (heck, maybe even 18"), and one wheel will be in the air, while the other three are on the ground.
....................... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: somewhere testing various tires, brakes, and suspensions.
Lifted less than a soda bottle - 6in at best before the rear was off the ground.
Lifted more in the pic just to show you. Still under the top of the bottle.
Lifted more in the pic just to show you. Still under the top of the bottle.
E92 has a 400hp v8. Coyote is a 400hp v8. I've tracked in both. Yep. They run in the same classes in NASA (A) and are evenly matched to run with each other.
So SRA? IRS is not magic. And does not make or break handling.
My ding on the Mustang's handling is because of its sloppy feel in transitions. You feel every pound when cornering, but I already conceded that's just driver preference. A car doesn't have to handle well to go fast, look at the GT500 for proof.
At the end of the day, we're arguing about subjective things. You'd never buy an FR-S, and I'd never buy a Mustang. "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." -The hottest ginger of them all
Warmmilk, the FR-S defense is yours for awhile. I have a sales meeting and won't have my computer all afternoon.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: somewhere testing various tires, brakes, and suspensions.
Seth, I am done making this a Mustang v. something thread. You're welcome to take this argument up in my S197 thread.
Evo is completely different. They don't have droop travel due to AWD and their setup.
Explain why do you don't want droop travel? Its actually an area that many Evos get in trouble with in the rear. They have too little and tripod with poor setups.
Again, you're basing your S197 SRA knowledge off the last time you knew Mustangs...somewhere back in 1986. Zero, repeat, zero axle hop. So, no, its not an issue for Mustang owners. What do I have to do now? Burn out?
Huh? Go watch my car in slaloms. Sloppy? Have you ever AX'd or tracked this car? Again, enough is enough.
LAST S197 talk here:
65-70mph off camber, downhill sweeper under throttle. Sloppy?
Your point well made, and although it is way less than an SN95 or Fox, that's still a whole lotta droop. You don't have to jack up an Evo nearly that high to get the back wheel off the ground.
Stop pretending like HP is the whole story here. The M3 HP is attained through deeper revs. The Coyote's extra liter means 95 more torque and way better area under the curve. Engine, baby, engine!
Of course not, but most cars are on the street 98%+ of the time. So axle hop is something Mustang owners will face in the real world.
My ding on the Mustang's handling is because of its sloppy feel in transitions. You feel every pound when cornering, but I already conceded that's just driver preference. A car doesn't have to handle well to go fast, look at the GT500 for proof.
At the end of the day, we're arguing about subjective things. You'd never buy an FR-S, and I'd never buy a Mustang. "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." -The hottest ginger of them all
Warmmilk, the FR-S defense is yours for awhile. I have a sales meeting and won't have my computer all afternoon.
Stop pretending like HP is the whole story here. The M3 HP is attained through deeper revs. The Coyote's extra liter means 95 more torque and way better area under the curve. Engine, baby, engine!
Of course not, but most cars are on the street 98%+ of the time. So axle hop is something Mustang owners will face in the real world.
My ding on the Mustang's handling is because of its sloppy feel in transitions. You feel every pound when cornering, but I already conceded that's just driver preference. A car doesn't have to handle well to go fast, look at the GT500 for proof.
At the end of the day, we're arguing about subjective things. You'd never buy an FR-S, and I'd never buy a Mustang. "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." -The hottest ginger of them all
Warmmilk, the FR-S defense is yours for awhile. I have a sales meeting and won't have my computer all afternoon.
Explain why do you don't want droop travel? Its actually an area that many Evos get in trouble with in the rear. They have too little and tripod with poor setups.
Again, you're basing your S197 SRA knowledge off the last time you knew Mustangs...somewhere back in 1986. Zero, repeat, zero axle hop. So, no, its not an issue for Mustang owners. What do I have to do now? Burn out?
Huh? Go watch my car in slaloms. Sloppy? Have you ever AX'd or tracked this car? Again, enough is enough.
LAST S197 talk here:
65-70mph off camber, downhill sweeper under throttle. Sloppy?
