[PSA] Silly VW Audi, tried to pull a fast one on the EPA
Sep 21, 2015, 07:26 AM
#1
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
[PSA] Silly VW Audi, tried to pull a fast one on the EPA
For their "Clean Diesel" cars.
So apparently Volkswagon AG had their engineer(s) create
LINK, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/bu...ware.html?_r=0
The recall covers roughly 482,000 diesel passenger cars sold in the United States since 2009.
Affected diesel models include the 2009-15 Volkswagen Jetta, 2009-15 Beetle, 2009-15 Golf, 2014-15 Passat and 2009-15 Audi A3.
Over the next year, E.P.A. officials said, owners of the affected vehicles should expect to receive recall notices from the company, including information about how to get their cars repaired at no cost to them.
************
VW sees around 15 billion euros ($16.9 billion) wiped off market value after rigging claims (As of Monday 9.21.2015)
LINK, http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-sto...081423265.html
And that's even before any Fines & Penalties been handed down by the EPA!
So, now we'll have to wait and see what the general public will do, who owns these "clean diesels" after their vehicles' resale value takes a dump.
So apparently Volkswagon AG had their engineer(s) create
a device programmed to detect when the cars are undergoing official emissions testing. The software device then turns off the emissions controls during normal driving situations, allowing the cars to emit more than the legal limit of pollutants.
The recall covers roughly 482,000 diesel passenger cars sold in the United States since 2009.
Affected diesel models include the 2009-15 Volkswagen Jetta, 2009-15 Beetle, 2009-15 Golf, 2014-15 Passat and 2009-15 Audi A3.
The EPA insisted that the violations do not pose any safety hazard and said the cars remain legal to drive and sell while Volkswagen comes up with a plan to recall and repair them. However, it said the cars pose a threat to public health.
Over the next year, E.P.A. officials said, owners of the affected vehicles should expect to receive recall notices from the company, including information about how to get their cars repaired at no cost to them.
************
VW sees around 15 billion euros ($16.9 billion) wiped off market value after rigging claims (As of Monday 9.21.2015)
LINK, http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-sto...081423265.html
And that's even before any Fines & Penalties been handed down by the EPA!
So, now we'll have to wait and see what the general public will do, who owns these "clean diesels" after their vehicles' resale value takes a dump.
Last edited by mRVRsport; Sep 21, 2015 at 07:37 AM.
Sep 21, 2015, 06:55 PM
#3
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
I never believed any of the automotive (or any other industry) who claim they have "Clean diesel". All just a play on words with colorful logos and catch phrases.
Sep 22, 2015, 07:26 AM
#4
Evolved Member
I would LOVE a Turbo diesel Porsche Cayenne with manual. They have/had them in Europe. Screw the EPA. 
It would be interesting to know what it cost VW to make that faking system.
It would be interesting to know what it cost VW to make that faking system.
Sep 22, 2015, 07:34 AM
#5
Evolved Member
A potential reason why we do not have Mitsubishi diesels here
Something else that should be mentioned in light of the Volkswagen emission results.
1. There is no excuse for VW cheating BUT
2. If US and Canada really want to set new emission standards they also have to make higher quality fuel. Currently, both the gasoline and diesel fuels are inferior in quality to say the European counterparts (BTW Europe has at least two different grades of diesel fuel, see later). In particular, the extremely high sulfur content must be reduced/removed:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...limate-agenda/
The EN590 grade diesel fuel in the EU is an ultra low sulfur diesel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590
The opposition in the US claims that strengthening the fuel standards would make the manufacturing more expensive that in turn should translate into higher fuel prices and this would affect the economy badly. Why these opponents think that implementation of higher fuel standards do not hit the European economy? Aren't we living on the same planet?
In the nineties Mitsubishi's very own (revolutionary at that time) direct injection engine project was derailed by the low fuel standards now the diesels struggle and I predict that the problems due to carbon depositions in the mass produced direct injection gasoline engines on the way.
Some of you have asked why do not we have the OS/RVR offered with the 1.8 L or the 2.2 L turbo diesel? The answer is simple: they cannot meet the emission standards but nobody mentions why. We do not have quality fuels.
Sep 22, 2015, 08:39 AM
#6
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
But, I have a pretty good idea what it cost them right now, (as of yesterday) = 16.9Billion Dollars!
Add on future Penalties from the EPA + Recall Fixing Costs*** + a Class Action from the Lawyers of them owners of those pewpew diesels vehicles, it'll be a few more $Billions.
I'm sure it's all just chump change for VW AG.
The term "CLEAN COAL" is equally a joke, yet an entire industry is built on this term in the States.
Something else that should be mentioned in light of the Volkswagen emission results.
1. There is no excuse for VW cheating BUT
2. If US and Canada really want to set new emission standards they also have to make higher quality fuel. Currently, both the gasoline and diesel fuels are inferior in quality to say the European counterparts (BTW Europe has at least two different grades of diesel fuel, see later). In particular, the extremely high sulfur content must be reduced/removed:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...limate-agenda/
The EN590 grade diesel fuel in the EU is an ultra low sulfur diesel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590
The opposition in the US claims that strengthening the fuel standards would make the manufacturing more expensive that in turn should translate into higher fuel prices and this would affect the economy badly. Why these opponents think that implementation of higher fuel standards do not hit the European economy? Aren't we living on the same planet?
In the nineties Mitsubishi's very own (revolutionary at that time) direct injection engine project was derailed by the low fuel standards now the diesels struggle and I predict that the problems due to carbon depositions in the mass produced direct injection gasoline engines on the way.
Some of you have asked why do not we have the OS/RVR offered with the 1.8 L or the 2.2 L turbo diesel? The answer is simple: they cannot meet the emission standards but nobody mentions why. We do not have quality fuels.
Something else that should be mentioned in light of the Volkswagen emission results.
1. There is no excuse for VW cheating BUT
2. If US and Canada really want to set new emission standards they also have to make higher quality fuel. Currently, both the gasoline and diesel fuels are inferior in quality to say the European counterparts (BTW Europe has at least two different grades of diesel fuel, see later). In particular, the extremely high sulfur content must be reduced/removed:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...limate-agenda/
The EN590 grade diesel fuel in the EU is an ultra low sulfur diesel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590
The opposition in the US claims that strengthening the fuel standards would make the manufacturing more expensive that in turn should translate into higher fuel prices and this would affect the economy badly. Why these opponents think that implementation of higher fuel standards do not hit the European economy? Aren't we living on the same planet?
In the nineties Mitsubishi's very own (revolutionary at that time) direct injection engine project was derailed by the low fuel standards now the diesels struggle and I predict that the problems due to carbon depositions in the mass produced direct injection gasoline engines on the way.
Some of you have asked why do not we have the OS/RVR offered with the 1.8 L or the 2.2 L turbo diesel? The answer is simple: they cannot meet the emission standards but nobody mentions why. We do not have quality fuels.
What the opponents meant to say is, it would cut into their annual Bonuses and Stock comps, thus reducing the chance of Oil Execs from purchasing more exotic cars, yachts, services, and mega mansions on the beach.
*** Not to mention all those 2016 "Clean Diesel" vehicles that's currently setting on dealer lots that CAN'T be sold because of this fiasco, That's going to eat into somebody's weekly Bonuses in the coming months!
Sep 22, 2015, 08:46 AM
#7
Evolved Member
Emission Control devices vs sulfur content
"Sulfur Content
Engine wear and deposits can vary due to the
sulfur content of the fuel. Today the greater concern
is the impact that sulfur could have on emission
control devices. As such, sulfur limits are now
set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA), and those limits have been incorporated into
ASTM D 975. For No. 2 grade low sulfur diesel, the
limit is a maximum of 0.05 percent mass (500 ppm)
and, for ultra-low sulfur diesel, it is 15 parts per
million (ppm) maximum." http://biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-performace_usage/service-technician's-guide-to-diesel-fuel.pdf?sfvrsn=4
The EU and Australian standard is 10 ppm (since January 1, 2009):
http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=EU:_Fuels:_Diesel_and_Gasoline
https://www.environment.gov.au/topic...andards/diesel
Even the best diesel fuels in US and Canada contain 50% more sulfur (50 % higher damage to the on board diagnostics) than in the rest of the world.
Mazda and Mitsubishi were wiser not to introduce diesels into their lineups because they cannot guarantee that their diagnostics would work and/or the cars with the available fuels will be able to balance the efficiency/pollution/performance triangle.
Engine wear and deposits can vary due to the
sulfur content of the fuel. Today the greater concern
is the impact that sulfur could have on emission
control devices. As such, sulfur limits are now
set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA), and those limits have been incorporated into
ASTM D 975. For No. 2 grade low sulfur diesel, the
limit is a maximum of 0.05 percent mass (500 ppm)
and, for ultra-low sulfur diesel, it is 15 parts per
million (ppm) maximum." http://biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-performace_usage/service-technician's-guide-to-diesel-fuel.pdf?sfvrsn=4
The EU and Australian standard is 10 ppm (since January 1, 2009):
http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=EU:_Fuels:_Diesel_and_Gasoline
https://www.environment.gov.au/topic...andards/diesel
Even the best diesel fuels in US and Canada contain 50% more sulfur (50 % higher damage to the on board diagnostics) than in the rest of the world.
Mazda and Mitsubishi were wiser not to introduce diesels into their lineups because they cannot guarantee that their diagnostics would work and/or the cars with the available fuels will be able to balance the efficiency/pollution/performance triangle.
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Sep 22, 2015, 08:56 AM
#8
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
"Sulfur Content
Engine wear and deposits can vary due to the
sulfur content of the fuel. Today the greater concern
is the impact that sulfur could have on emission
control devices. As such, sulfur limits are now
set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA), and those limits have been incorporated into
ASTM D 975. For No. 2 grade low sulfur diesel, the
limit is a maximum of 0.05 percent mass (500 ppm)
and, for ultra-low sulfur diesel, it is 15 parts per
million (ppm) maximum." http://biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-perfor...l.pdf?sfvrsn=4
The EU and Australian standard is 10 ppm (since January 1, 2009):
http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=EU:_Fuels:_Diesel_and_Gasoline
https://www.environment.gov.au/topic...andards/diesel
Even the best diesel fuels in US and Canada contain 50% more sulfur (50 % higher damage to the on board diagnostics) than in the rest of the world.
Mazda and Mitsubishi were wiser not to introduce diesels into their lineups because they cannot guarantee that their diagnostics would work and/or the cars with the available fuels will be able to balance the efficiency/pollution/performance triangle.
Engine wear and deposits can vary due to the
sulfur content of the fuel. Today the greater concern
is the impact that sulfur could have on emission
control devices. As such, sulfur limits are now
set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA), and those limits have been incorporated into
ASTM D 975. For No. 2 grade low sulfur diesel, the
limit is a maximum of 0.05 percent mass (500 ppm)
and, for ultra-low sulfur diesel, it is 15 parts per
million (ppm) maximum." http://biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-perfor...l.pdf?sfvrsn=4
The EU and Australian standard is 10 ppm (since January 1, 2009):
http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=EU:_Fuels:_Diesel_and_Gasoline
https://www.environment.gov.au/topic...andards/diesel
Even the best diesel fuels in US and Canada contain 50% more sulfur (50 % higher damage to the on board diagnostics) than in the rest of the world.
Mazda and Mitsubishi were wiser not to introduce diesels into their lineups because they cannot guarantee that their diagnostics would work and/or the cars with the available fuels will be able to balance the efficiency/pollution/performance triangle.
Hmm..
So, I'm guessing UNLESS you(the owner) are willing to pay out $50K+ for a BMW, Mercedes, or other luxury brands - they apparently are able to come up with diesels models "better" OBDs that can handle our crappy fuels
Sep 22, 2015, 09:43 AM
#9
Evolved Member
Read the quote from the article cited below:"The U.S. version of the Skyactiv-D will likely use a urea injection system for exhaust aftertreatment, although Mazda had initially hoped to get by without fitting the system's tank and plumbing."
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...able-exec-says. Guess what: This will make the US diesel version more expensive.
Sep 22, 2015, 10:48 AM
#10
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
The other shoe just dropped! >
Volkswagen Admits 11 Million Vehicles Had Fake Pollution Controls
LINK, https://www.yahoo.com/autos/volkswag...635341557.html
Volkswagen Admits 11 Million Vehicles Had Fake Pollution Controls
In an unprecedented admission, Volkswagen said early Tuesday that its practice of fitting diesel cars with software designed to fake pollution tests was installed on 11 million vehicles worldwide—and that the company was setting aside nearly $7.3 billion to address the issue.
The news came just hours after Volkswagen’s U.S. chief offered his own apologies for the scandal uncovered by U.S. researchers, which found that four-cylinder diesels in 482,000 VWs and Audis sold since 2009 emitted up to 40 times more of the smog-causing pollutant nitrogen oxide than allowed by law. The cars’ engine software was designed by VW to restrict pollution only when it sensed it was being tested for it—and run more lax controls at all other times.
The Wall Street Journal reported Monday that the U.S. Department of Justice has opened a criminal probe into VW’s actions, and Congress will hold hearings as well. Under the federal Clean-Air Act, VW would be liable for up to $18 billion in fines for the violation...
LINK, https://www.yahoo.com/autos/volkswag...635341557.html
Last edited by mRVRsport; Sep 22, 2015 at 01:51 PM.
Sep 22, 2015, 11:01 AM
#11
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
I think that Mercedes and BMW use urea (Adblue as a commercial name; injected into the exhaust gas) treatment to combat this issue. As far as I know neither Mazda Skyactiv diesel nor Mitsubishi diesels have this technology implemented (yet?). They are selling diesels world wide except NA. Mazda is certainly fighting for the introduction of diesels to the US lineup.
Read the quote from the article cited below:"The U.S. version of the Skyactiv-D will likely use a urea injection system for exhaust aftertreatment, although Mazda had initially hoped to get by without fitting the system's tank and plumbing."
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...able-exec-says. Guess what: This will make the US diesel version more expensive.
Read the quote from the article cited below:"The U.S. version of the Skyactiv-D will likely use a urea injection system for exhaust aftertreatment, although Mazda had initially hoped to get by without fitting the system's tank and plumbing."
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...able-exec-says. Guess what: This will make the US diesel version more expensive.
Yes, so these two auto manufacturers Don't do anything to the crappy USA Diesel Fuel PRIOR to the exhaust stage...
Which means the exact same amount of sulfur content is being ingested by their motors and contaminating/fouling their diagnostic sensors as that of Volkswagon's...
Guess we'll have to see if more auto companies are cheating or just better engineers.
Sep 22, 2015, 12:10 PM
#12
Evolved Member
Yes, so these two auto manufacturers Don't do anything to the crappy USA Diesel Fuel PRIOR to the exhaust stage...
Which means the exact same amount of sulfur content is being ingested by their motors and contaminating/fouling their diagnostic sensors as that of Volkswagon's...
Guess we'll have to see if more auto companies are cheating or just better engineers.
Which means the exact same amount of sulfur content is being ingested by their motors and contaminating/fouling their diagnostic sensors as that of Volkswagon's...
Guess we'll have to see if more auto companies are cheating or just better engineers.
The NA customer can argue like this: If automakers want my dollars to spend on their cars they better accommodate to our fuel standards/performance demands/ environmental regulations. That is enough. I simply wanted to illuminate the other side of the coin namely, some of these requirements are acting against each other (e.g. According to Volkswagen when the system is engaged the performance and residue deposition in the engine was worse).
Sep 24, 2015, 06:24 AM
#13
Evolved Member
Now BMW X3 TD emission is above EU limit
This particular test resulted in 11 times higher emission values than the legal limit in the EU. To BMW's credit X5 and 13 other diesel BMW cars passed the test:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...eeded-eu-limit
No foul play is suspected but more government ordered random tests are on the way according to the German Transportation Ministry.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...eeded-eu-limit
No foul play is suspected but more government ordered random tests are on the way according to the German Transportation Ministry.
Last edited by AWCAWD; Sep 24, 2015 at 06:42 AM.
Sep 24, 2015, 06:48 AM
#14
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
Es ist nicht schlecht, nicht schlecht.
... To BMW's credit X5 and 13 other diesel BMW cars passed the test:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...eeded-eu-limit
No foul play is suspected but more government ordered random tests are on the way according to the German Transportation Ministry.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...eeded-eu-limit
No foul play is suspected but more government ordered random tests are on the way according to the German Transportation Ministry.
Das ist schön zu hören.
Ausgezeichnet. Wie sie sollten.
Sep 24, 2015, 04:30 PM
#15
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
VW cars with suspect software in Europe too
The software at the center of Volkswagen's emissions scandal in the U.S. was built into the automaker's cars in Europe as well..
How to you say Ooops! in German?
LINK, http://news.yahoo.com/board-member-e...--finance.html#