Kid Lancer 7

iTrader: (7)

Mister Spoot...... U forgot the infamous Tibby for Hyundai

NOVA EVO

Plus...Nissan/Infiniti is supposed to be bringing the Skyline to North America...we'll see...

MisterSpoot

Cars I did not forget, but considered "sporty" and not "sports cars".

Acura RSX Type-S
Hyundai Tiburon
Mazdaspeed Miata
Mitsubishi Eclipse GT/GTS
Toyota Celica GT-S
Toyota MR2
...

... and many others. They're not true bonified sports cars. Some of these are capable handlers (notably the MR2 and Miata), but lack straight-line speed.

X_Dragon

the awd corolla is redesigned already???
back in Oct 2003, didn't Toyota annouce that they plan to join back the WRC in 2007??
i'll try to dig it up again.. just for you guys

and ps.. if the Skyline ever comes to America.. it will most likely be "waterdowned"..

Dookie

I have heard that the Skyline is coming to the states too. I don't see how it will be different from the G35 coupe because that is the Skyline in Japan right now.

Ariofighter

iTrader: (1)

Toyota went fuel economy, and not alot of sports cars have good fuel econ.... 18mpg, umm not to great. And when the Toyotas in my area have the slogen that goes something like, all cars over 30mpg.....i dont think sports cars are on there priority list. Just my opinion.

4-G-rim

iTrader: (1)

I work for Toyota....I drive a Mitsubishi and prefer Mitsus. My Pops has a 1997 3000gt VR4 and just recently a 2003 Montero Limited. Toyota has focused into a different direction (Well at least the USDM market) to being more "enviroment friendly". Even TRD has "soften" up in ways....no longer making cams or other internal mods, only for the old 22R's and 4AG motors. The Celica GT-s is decent...the Corolla XRS has some spunk...and the new Scion Tc has the 2.4 Camry motor and available to be supercharged, but only making around 200hp...decent affordable "sporty" cars. If you notice...Toyota is geared towards the "Enviromentally friendly" cars....they are spending alot of R&D on hybrid cars. They have the successful Prius..and next year they will have a Hybrid Highlander SUV, and planning to utilize the hybrid concept on the new Tundra and new Supra.

osunick

iTrader: (8)

I suggest reading a book called "The End of Detroit", it's basically about the downfall of the American auto industry over the past 30 years and the imports that have appeared to take their place. A couple interesting points.

1. Detroit's problems are self-inflicted and are not the result of unfair competition
2. While the UAW does incur costs that the imports don't deal with, if american car companies would build cars that people wanted to buy, they would still make a TON of money

Anyway, I brought this up because there are chapters devoted to the major Japanese manufacturers. One interesting conversation with a Toyota exec was directed at criticism that their cars were boring. To paraphrase, he said:

"Every year there are new ice cream flavors that become popular. However, these flavors change often and at the end of the day, the most popular flavor is vanilla. And we sell an awful lot of vanilla."

That's the toyota philosophy. If you're the #1 car company in the world (not in production #'s but the market cap is greater than GM, Ford, and DC COMBINED) then you stick to what keeps you #1. Car companies are in the business to make money, and if you're the standard you don't have to make cars that appeal to niche markets. Those smaller markets are what everyone else has to scramble after, not Toyota. I expect eventually the Toyota machine will decide that it's time to make a sports car to spice up the product range and when they do, it will probably be the best car for its money in the world.

erikgj

iTrader: (2)

I would chage that list a little:


Acura .......... NSX (going away), TSX, RSX
Audi ........... S4, S6, S8, TT 225hp
BMW ............ M3 Coupe, Z4 3.0i, M5
Buick ..........
Cadillac ....... CTS-V
Chevrolet ...... Corvette
Chrysler ....... SRT-6 Crossfire
Dodge .......... SRT-4 Neon, SRT-10 Viper
Ford ........... Mustang GT, GT, Focus SVT
GMC ............
Honda .......... S2000 (going away)
HUMMER .........
Hyundai ........
Infiniti ....... G35 Coupe, G35 sedan
Isuzu ..........
Jaguar ......... S-Type R, XKR, XJR, X-type 3.0
Jeep ...........
Kia ............
Land Rover .....
Lexus .......... GS430
Lincoln ........ LS
Maserati ....... Spyder, Coupe
Mazda .......... RX-8, Miata
Mercedes-Benz .. C55 AMG, SL55 AMG
Mercury ........
Mini ........... Cooper S JCW
Mitsubishi ..... Lancer Evolution (all variants)
Nissan ......... 350Z, Sentra Vspec
Oldsmobile .....
Pontiac ........ GTO
Porsche ........ Boxster S, 911 (all variants)
Saab ........... 9-2X, 9-3 aero, 9-5 aero
Saturn .........
Scion ..........
Subaru ......... Impreza WRX (all variants, legacy GT
Suzuki .........
Toyota ......... Solara with TRD package
Volkswagen ..... Golf R32
Volvo .......... S60 R, V70 R

MisterSpoot

RSX and TSX don't have the oomph. If those are sports cars, so's my V6 Eclipse -- which I NEVER considered to be a sports car.

S6 and S8 are no longer in production. If anything I'll add the TT 3.2 to the list since it has major suspension changes over the 1.8s. The 3.2 holds against an R32

M5 is no longer in production.

Focus SVT is no longer in production. The GT isn't in production yet, but close. I'd throw it in.

X-Type 3.0 is not a sports car. Sorry. A 330Ci is a heck of a lot more sporty than an X-Type 3.0, and I still consider the E46 to be sporty except in M form. Also, try getting an XJ to do anything aside from running in a straight-line. In that regard, take the S-Type off the list -- I've had the chance to pilot that and while fun on the highway, it's too hesitant on backroads.

The Lexus 4.3L has amazing grunt, but truthfully, the GS isn't a great handler. It's good, but not great. Also why I left the SC430 off the list.

LS still trips over its own two feet despite major suspension revisions, and the slushbox 4-speed still ruins the potential of that 4.0L V8.

Despite the Miata's exceptional handling capabilities, it's still not quick in the straights. To me it's like the MR2 -- if they gave it some serious punch, then yes. Of course, a 200HP stock Miata would mean I'd have one in my driveway.

Sentra V-Spec? If so, then a Civic Si is a sports car. And a Lancer Ralliart. And a Corolla/Matrix XRS. Again, sporty, not sports.

Try tracking a 9-3 or 9-5, bone stock... again, sporty, not sports.

TRD packages are aftermarket, technically, since they don't offer the full Toyota warranty. The list above was cars that were bone stock.

3000ways

Basically what I got from your post is yes Toyota is boring, and yes they know the public views them as this, and no they have no plans in the forseable future to change this lable. I sincerely hope this is not case, because I do kind of understand, when you are on the top (as Toyota seems to be right now) things seem to be a lot more clearer and easier, but one or many quickly come to realize that the struggle to stay on top is sometimes even more difficult than the struggle was to get to the top. I do not know of many or even any companies that would be satisfied with their product being refered to by many of the consumers as boring and unemotional, and I sincerely hope that Toyota is not the exception to this rule. For right now, Toyota is fine, things are going great, cars are selling very well, especially in the United States of America. Still there is a problem, which right now is somewhat minor, but many people in the younger generation are begining to think of Toyota and their new car models as boring and unemotional. This is somewhat minor right now, because it is the older generation that has the most money and it is the older generation that still see's Toyota as an attractive buy, and are willing to fork up over $28,000 for a fully optioned V6 Camry. It is the older generation that has fueled Toyota sells to record breaking pace. Then, which has been the case through out the history of the United States, the younger generation will become the older, wealthier, and more established generation. WHEN this begins to happend, I sincerely hope that the lable of boring and unemotional is not still in the thoughts of this new older generation. If boring and unemotional is still the lable, Toyota will quickly find out just how big of a struggle they will have to stay on the top. Toyota will have no one to blame but themselves, for their struggle will have come from self-inflictions for not acting on a problem that at one time was minor, but became major, ask GM and Ford about this. I certainly hope that Toyota is NOT fine with their products being labled as boring and unemotional right now, especially when they have Honda and yes even Nissan looming heavily in the background. I believe with the introduction of Scion they are beganing to realize the problem, but they will need to do more, you might not believe me right now, but believe this, you do not sit on your perch on the top and do nothing, and expect to stay there.

4-G-rim

iTrader: (1)

...Wow, well though response. I don't think Toyota is not sitting on top of they perch and thinking that they will stay in the current position. I do think they realize that consumers are expecting some "style and spunk" to vehicles today.....and they already have a edge because they already have a reputation of having well built reliable vehicles. They established Scion because they did see that the younger genre like to express themselves by "modifying" their cars. If Toyota's lineup is unemotional and boring....they have ALOT of consumers out there that like that type because Toyota just recently is ahead of Ford in total vehicle sales in the U.S. They have improved ALOT in their styling...which was one of they biggest flaws in the mid 90's....now their lineup today has some appeal, even offering body kit upgrades, eurostyle lights, and interior upgrades (Carbon fiber accents) etc etc. Now...I do agree that their current lineup does LACK sporty performance, but their focus right now isn't there. Another thing to consider is the USDM market....which is SUV driven and now "Bigger is better" concept is starting to come to play....that market far generates more money than the sport car catagory.
-Nissan took a gamble totally overhauling their whole vehicle lineup...and it paid off very well, and they took that momentum to rereleased the "Z" just in time as
the sport car market started showing some spark in sales.
-Mazda did the same thing....but took out some non profitable cars out of their lineup and focused a handful of cars, instead of 2 handful of cars.
-Honda never was really affected, they continued to make reliable cars with simple appealing styles...and rode with it.
-Subaru was a baby that just learned to walk correctly....and the Impreza WRX just helped them even more.
-Mitsubishi even with all the scandal with them....rode the success of the Eclipse here in the USDM market and stayed somewhat afloat. Mitsubishi reputation is Performance....but still lacking in quality and reliability.

Hell....Even Kia and Hyundai are making some decent cars and selling them too!

I personally wouldn't buy a Toyota if I was looking for Sport car performace...I would buy a 4g Supra or even 91-94 MR2 turbo. But if I was looking for a truck or SUV....I would buy a Toyota hands down!

MisterSpoot

I doubt Toyota is sitting on its laurels either. If they remain fat and happy, they'd end up in trouble. They've made a lot of progress to get where they are. Anyone have a Toyota in the 70s? Yes, they rusted through faster than even an American car. This was still somewhat the case through the 80s because they used scrap steel to make the body panels, and only luxury marques were galvanizing.

And yes, people like their cars plain and boring. There are a lot of folks who simply view them as an appliance and almost can't fathom spending $30,000+ for a car that to them adds no real benefit. Nevermind styling. Heck, my folks have been driving Toyotas for the past 22 years, and they don't like the new styling of the Matrix, any of the Scion lineup, and get this -- the Camry. They'd prefer the early 90's styling instead! The target market for the Accord/Camry is very fickle in regards to styling, which is why the cars have remained rather staid all this time. They don't want manual transmissions, jumpy engines, and edgy styling. They want anonyminity, general comfort and convenience, good fuel economy, good residual value, and low auto insurance rates. Toyota does extremely well in that regard.

Another thing... when was the last time Toyota's market owned a sports car? If they had to put things off because of family, probably not for some time. And the thing is, with the major changes to transmission, tire (huge changes), and suspension technology over the years -- a Camry Solara V6 would give a lot of cars from 20 - 25 years ago (bone stock...) a brutal thrashing on a road course, and would be within a half-second at the drag strip with all but the best of the 60s. A lot of those cars on stock tires were only putting down around mid-to-upper 14's, and only a handful were breaking into the high 13s straight off the lot. So aside from the tire-smokin' and insane amounts of torque, a Solara V6 would give your folks a similar feeling to a 1967 GTO with the 400, or a 1967 Firebird.

When my pops came over last, I showed him the spec sheet for the Evolution MR I should have in a few short months. His remark is that the performance was so excessive, he doesn't feel it should be street legal. This is coming from a guy that would illegally drag-race with an Oldsmobile equipped with a 440 -- and had so much power it would literally set its nylon tires on fire.

-----

Someone mentioned Hyundai/Kia. I'll say this -- anyone who thinks that they haven't made humungous strides in the past 10 years is kidding themselves. Talk about rags to riches. Hyundai would easily be the butt of many car jokes not too long ago, but they're positioning themselves to be a major player in the next 10-15 years.

In '03 Hyundai's had the lowest reported defects per 100 vehicles of any company at 102. Big T came in with 103 (tied with Honda). Their main problems now is waiting for their tarnished image to fade, and further refinement of their lineup -- less engine vibration/noise, less wind/road noise, and more interior panache. Their price advantage will shrink with it, but if they keep pushing quality and maintain that warranty package, they will quickly start putting noticable dents in the sales of the Tier-1 Japanese automakers.

HuskerEVO

Is Toyota boring? YES.

They make a nice, dependable car that satisfies the masses. Thus, the almighty dollar has spoken...

tarmacBANG

Audi has the RS6.