Chassis data logging for $1k
Chassis data logging for $1k
G2X
Traqmate
I've been toying with the idea of a data logger.
What I think I want out of one of these is:
-A lap timer
-The ability to look at segment times
-MPH at many points on the track.
-A high frequency sample of G-forces, meaning the ability to look at a friction circle kind of graph for any given corner.
The only conclusion I've come up with so far is that I think I need a unit with an accelerometer in addition to GPS. The G2X calculates g forces from the GPS, while the Traqmate uses an accelerometer in addition to the GPS.
Links to other systems in this price range and comments very welcome.
Traqmate
I've been toying with the idea of a data logger.
What I think I want out of one of these is:
-A lap timer
-The ability to look at segment times
-MPH at many points on the track.
-A high frequency sample of G-forces, meaning the ability to look at a friction circle kind of graph for any given corner.
The only conclusion I've come up with so far is that I think I need a unit with an accelerometer in addition to GPS. The G2X calculates g forces from the GPS, while the Traqmate uses an accelerometer in addition to the GPS.
Links to other systems in this price range and comments very welcome.
Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 400
Likes: 1
From: Columbus, OH
Looks like fun toys. The G2X site mentions acceleration by GPS and inertia, but I didn't see anything but GPS in their manual. The Traqmate samples GPS at 4Hz, in a 90mph corner that's a sample every 33ft with ~1ft precision. If that's all the G2X does that's kind of low res. I'd guess they both have accelerometers. I'll see if I can talk with someone at OSU's Center for Automotive Research. I think they still run Formula SAE and other racing programs so they may know what's good in instrumentation.
Dave
Dave
I like this timer a lot, but I don't think it has g-force recording
http://www.helmetharbor.com/racing/x...ng/opening.htm
http://www.helmetharbor.com/racing/x...ng/opening.htm
This might be another "data point" in your search graph...
R&T article
All the Porsche guys use either MoTec or Race Tech DL-1
There is a consideration - Popularity allows you to share data with other that have the same unit (as OpenSource for data has not yet arrived on the Neanderthal driving scene) This answers the age old question, "How the heck are you taking that corner, you're so much faster through there..."
MoTeC
Race Tech DL-1
Oh, the real neat thing about DL-1 is that it can link and sync with stuff like this for data and video
Trackvision
A race team that I know of just bought two DL-1's and they are really cool.
Another possibility is the AIM stuff, but they can get pricey - well maybe not as pricey as MoTec or the Vbox...
http://www.aim-sportline.com/
Hope this helps,
Deetz.
R&T article
All the Porsche guys use either MoTec or Race Tech DL-1
There is a consideration - Popularity allows you to share data with other that have the same unit (as OpenSource for data has not yet arrived on the Neanderthal driving scene) This answers the age old question, "How the heck are you taking that corner, you're so much faster through there..."
MoTeC
Race Tech DL-1
Oh, the real neat thing about DL-1 is that it can link and sync with stuff like this for data and video
Trackvision
A race team that I know of just bought two DL-1's and they are really cool.
Another possibility is the AIM stuff, but they can get pricey - well maybe not as pricey as MoTec or the Vbox...
http://www.aim-sportline.com/
Hope this helps,
Deetz.
Originally Posted by djh
Looks like fun toys. The G2X site mentions acceleration by GPS and inertia, but I didn't see anything but GPS in their manual. The Traqmate samples GPS at 4Hz, in a 90mph corner that's a sample every 33ft with ~1ft precision. If that's all the G2X does that's kind of low res. I'd guess they both have accelerometers. I'll see if I can talk with someone at OSU's Center for Automotive Research. I think they still run Formula SAE and other racing programs so they may know what's good in instrumentation.
Dave
Dave
Input from a real automotive engeneer would be very helpfull.
I've concluded that there is no way for GPS to be a usefull system for recording the exact line you are driving, nor is that necessary. You get real time feedback in car from your Mk1 eyeball regarding if you were on line or not.
I can pick a certain line and drive it consistanly lap after lap. What I would want to do is log a particular line with segment times and speeds, then make a change in how I take a particular corner and see if I gain or loose.
I also want to see a friction circle to determine if I am driving to the limit at all points in the turn.
Last edited by Scottybob; May 10, 2005 at 09:15 AM.
Trending Topics
While browsing the above links for new stuff, did anyone see or know about this:
MoTec ECU for EVO's
Hmmm, may give AME EMS a run for its money?
Deetz.
MoTec ECU for EVO's
Hmmm, may give AME EMS a run for its money?
Deetz.
Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 400
Likes: 1
From: Columbus, OH
Originally Posted by Scottybob
I can pick a certain line and drive it consistanly lap after lap.
Originally Posted by Scottybob
What I would want to do is log a particular line with segment times and speeds, then make a change in how I take a particular corner and see if I gain or loose.
Dave
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: Clarkston, MI
Originally Posted by Scottybob
I noticed it mentioned an inertia sensor in the intro of the manual. I also though I saw 3 samples per sec somewhere in the G2X info, but now I cant find it.
Input from a real automotive engeneer would be very helpfull.
I've concluded that there is no way for GPS to be a usefull system for recording the exact line you are driving, nor is that necessary. You get real time feedback in car from your Mk1 eyeball regarding if you were on line or not.
I can pick a certain line and drive it consistanly lap after lap. What I would want to do is log a particular line with segment times and speeds, then make a change in how I take a particular corner and see if I gain or loose.
I also want to see a friction circle to determine if I am driving to the limit at all points in the turn.
Input from a real automotive engeneer would be very helpfull.
I've concluded that there is no way for GPS to be a usefull system for recording the exact line you are driving, nor is that necessary. You get real time feedback in car from your Mk1 eyeball regarding if you were on line or not.
I can pick a certain line and drive it consistanly lap after lap. What I would want to do is log a particular line with segment times and speeds, then make a change in how I take a particular corner and see if I gain or loose.
I also want to see a friction circle to determine if I am driving to the limit at all points in the turn.
Track maps are a great thing to help define where you are on the track w/ reference to your g-reads and also, if color coded, help to graphically compare speeds and other key data. You'll then be able to determine if you are leaving driving capability on the table or you can use it to measure effect of tuning changes. Lots of great info if you know what your are doing, otherwise it can also quickly become data overload given other variables. It's also great to compare driving style among different drivers.
I got some more good info on the G2X via email:
Ralph,
Thanks for emailing. I will answer your questions and then give you a bit more detail concerning the G2X.
1) how much data can the G2X store, and what happens when it runs out of
space? Ideally, I would want it to automatically start overwriting the
oldest data, so I can leave it running as a continuous "black box
recorder" of sorts. Can this be done?
The G2X is equipped with a 128MB Compact Flash card. This typically gives
over 30 hours of GPS recorded data. A new file is automatically created
each time the vehicle stops moving for over 20 seconds. Each file
is date and time stamped, for reference. You can install larger
memory cards, also. Would the 30 hours be enough time for
your needs?
2) How does the gear indicator on the dash display sense the gear - is
an extra sensor required, or does it work by comparing vehicle speed to
rpm and taking the ratio? Is there a delay when shifting?
Two different methods: The first is a comparison between engine rpm
and mph and the second is manually entering gear ratios for each gear.
The G2X needs to be able to source a standard tach signal, in order
for the sequential shift lights and gear indicator to operate.
3) how is the dash display mounted to the steering wheel?
Three mounting points are located on the rear of the dash. We
try to leave it up to the individual, how they prefer to physically mount
it to the wheel. I hope we can offer some type of common mount, eventually.
Below is a bit more information, concerning the G2X system.
In essence, the 1"x1" GPS antenna replaces the tripod, lap beacon transmitter,
segment time transmitters, wheel speed sensors and cables and all wiring associated with the
ability to create track maps and obtain MPH data.
The G2X is an evolution of our professional series GPS data loggers utilized in Nascar / Offshore Powerboats / Road Racing / Magazine and Automobile testing,etc.
The development and use of our GPS data systems (both hardware and software) has been a four year / many many $$$ project. About two years ago, we realized if that if
the appropriate GPS board was developed, that gave us exceptional GPS signal reception, at a reasonable cost, combined with
our software, it would make a great data package for the sportsman racer.
The G2X is the result of all those items coming together. It is not a new product in the sense of what we are doing, as we have made thousands of laps
at racetracks all over the country...however it is new to the sportsman market. The great thing about GPS track mapping is the fact
that the lap and segment times are the same as trackside beacons and thus the track map can be utilized over and over, which
enables the user to compare lap and segment times between various cars, various days or years. I am using track maps created
four years ago. Our software will produce results in both graphical and report format, such as segment comparisons, speed stats
etc. The software included with the G2X is the same utilized by the professional teams.
We have proven the accuracy of lap and segment times to be within .05, compared to trackside transmitters. The speed is within .1mph accuracy....much better than wheel speed sensors
obtaining data and converting to speed through tire diameter calculations. We have found at tracks such as Daytona, a difference in
groundspeed of up to 6 or 7 mph, when compared with wheelspeed sensor created data. The magazines that utilize our test systems
have found the accuracy to be better than radar guns and fifth wheel sensors. The current units produces data in English units,however
we are working to enable an easy transition to metric. This involves not only speed, but track distance, etc.
The g forces data is accurate, relative to mounting the logger level both front and rear. Typically, the main thing concerning G data
is to insure the logger is mounted close to the same, every time, as the main concern is comparison more than true delta.
The display dash enables the user to set start finish from within the car, while driving on the track. This enables the dash
to provide lap data to the driver, quickly and efficiently. This procedure only needs to be performed one time, per track.
The display dash is designed to be an intuitive part of the system.
Start / Finish can be set with the dash, while on the track. This assigned GPS position
is saved in the G2x software and upon each pass by the start / finish, lap time and numbers
are displayed for a time. After that, the dash returns to the normal setting, providing engine rpm.
Lap + / - difference and amount are available by a press of a button.
Upon exiting the track and when the vehicle comes to a stop, the dash reverts back to the first lap number
and time of the outing (or session). This allows the driver to toggle and review all laps. Upon
returning to the track, the dash automatically resets the lap number and lap time to zero,
then reverts back to engine rpm, etc until the start / finish is passed, again.
As I have related to all those that have inquired or already ordered, if my Nascar teams are willing to utilize our GPS data for their test programs, I hope we can gain the trust of
our sportsman customers, with a solid, proven system.
Our upcoming website will hopefully help with the details...we have been busy trying to get the G2X ready for production and
did not get the website up, yet. I have a demo CD and manual, if you would like to review the software and work with a G2X run.
I can send this to you, if you would like to provide me a mailing address.
If you have any more questions, do not hesitate to contact me. I can be reached directly at:
Tim Anderson
Racepak Data Systems
Direct Line: 423-968-5429
949-709-5555
Thanks for emailing. I will answer your questions and then give you a bit more detail concerning the G2X.
1) how much data can the G2X store, and what happens when it runs out of
space? Ideally, I would want it to automatically start overwriting the
oldest data, so I can leave it running as a continuous "black box
recorder" of sorts. Can this be done?
The G2X is equipped with a 128MB Compact Flash card. This typically gives
over 30 hours of GPS recorded data. A new file is automatically created
each time the vehicle stops moving for over 20 seconds. Each file
is date and time stamped, for reference. You can install larger
memory cards, also. Would the 30 hours be enough time for
your needs?
2) How does the gear indicator on the dash display sense the gear - is
an extra sensor required, or does it work by comparing vehicle speed to
rpm and taking the ratio? Is there a delay when shifting?
Two different methods: The first is a comparison between engine rpm
and mph and the second is manually entering gear ratios for each gear.
The G2X needs to be able to source a standard tach signal, in order
for the sequential shift lights and gear indicator to operate.
3) how is the dash display mounted to the steering wheel?
Three mounting points are located on the rear of the dash. We
try to leave it up to the individual, how they prefer to physically mount
it to the wheel. I hope we can offer some type of common mount, eventually.
Below is a bit more information, concerning the G2X system.
In essence, the 1"x1" GPS antenna replaces the tripod, lap beacon transmitter,
segment time transmitters, wheel speed sensors and cables and all wiring associated with the
ability to create track maps and obtain MPH data.
The G2X is an evolution of our professional series GPS data loggers utilized in Nascar / Offshore Powerboats / Road Racing / Magazine and Automobile testing,etc.
The development and use of our GPS data systems (both hardware and software) has been a four year / many many $$$ project. About two years ago, we realized if that if
the appropriate GPS board was developed, that gave us exceptional GPS signal reception, at a reasonable cost, combined with
our software, it would make a great data package for the sportsman racer.
The G2X is the result of all those items coming together. It is not a new product in the sense of what we are doing, as we have made thousands of laps
at racetracks all over the country...however it is new to the sportsman market. The great thing about GPS track mapping is the fact
that the lap and segment times are the same as trackside beacons and thus the track map can be utilized over and over, which
enables the user to compare lap and segment times between various cars, various days or years. I am using track maps created
four years ago. Our software will produce results in both graphical and report format, such as segment comparisons, speed stats
etc. The software included with the G2X is the same utilized by the professional teams.
We have proven the accuracy of lap and segment times to be within .05, compared to trackside transmitters. The speed is within .1mph accuracy....much better than wheel speed sensors
obtaining data and converting to speed through tire diameter calculations. We have found at tracks such as Daytona, a difference in
groundspeed of up to 6 or 7 mph, when compared with wheelspeed sensor created data. The magazines that utilize our test systems
have found the accuracy to be better than radar guns and fifth wheel sensors. The current units produces data in English units,however
we are working to enable an easy transition to metric. This involves not only speed, but track distance, etc.
The g forces data is accurate, relative to mounting the logger level both front and rear. Typically, the main thing concerning G data
is to insure the logger is mounted close to the same, every time, as the main concern is comparison more than true delta.
The display dash enables the user to set start finish from within the car, while driving on the track. This enables the dash
to provide lap data to the driver, quickly and efficiently. This procedure only needs to be performed one time, per track.
The display dash is designed to be an intuitive part of the system.
Start / Finish can be set with the dash, while on the track. This assigned GPS position
is saved in the G2x software and upon each pass by the start / finish, lap time and numbers
are displayed for a time. After that, the dash returns to the normal setting, providing engine rpm.
Lap + / - difference and amount are available by a press of a button.
Upon exiting the track and when the vehicle comes to a stop, the dash reverts back to the first lap number
and time of the outing (or session). This allows the driver to toggle and review all laps. Upon
returning to the track, the dash automatically resets the lap number and lap time to zero,
then reverts back to engine rpm, etc until the start / finish is passed, again.
As I have related to all those that have inquired or already ordered, if my Nascar teams are willing to utilize our GPS data for their test programs, I hope we can gain the trust of
our sportsman customers, with a solid, proven system.
Our upcoming website will hopefully help with the details...we have been busy trying to get the G2X ready for production and
did not get the website up, yet. I have a demo CD and manual, if you would like to review the software and work with a G2X run.
I can send this to you, if you would like to provide me a mailing address.
If you have any more questions, do not hesitate to contact me. I can be reached directly at:
Tim Anderson
Racepak Data Systems
Direct Line: 423-968-5429
949-709-5555
Originally Posted by mov_ovr
I don't know why you would conclude that GPS has no use. I've datalogged for years and find it much harder to use w/o accurate maps, it's not necessarily about defining the line though. GPS mapping also improves on accelerometer based maps which are thrown off by wheel slip and can create some funky maps. The price point of the G2X is actually quiet impressive.
Track maps are a great thing to help define where you are on the track w/ reference to your g-reads and also, if color coded, help to graphically compare speeds and other key data. You'll then be able to determine if you are leaving driving capability on the table or you can use it to measure effect of tuning changes. Lots of great info if you know what your are doing, otherwise it can also quickly become data overload given other variables. It's also great to compare driving style among different drivers.
Track maps are a great thing to help define where you are on the track w/ reference to your g-reads and also, if color coded, help to graphically compare speeds and other key data. You'll then be able to determine if you are leaving driving capability on the table or you can use it to measure effect of tuning changes. Lots of great info if you know what your are doing, otherwise it can also quickly become data overload given other variables. It's also great to compare driving style among different drivers.
Data
Originally Posted by Scottybob
All I'm saying is that the GPS is not going to tell you if you miss an apex by 6 inches or need to turn in a foot sooner. I see where it is extremely usefull for many other things.
Would you mind elaborating on how it helps you with lines.
What I am assuming is that you you would be able to see something like reduced lateral g's at the end of a turn on a late turn in. Or, something like poor exit speed on an early apex.
What I am assuming is that you you would be able to see something like reduced lateral g's at the end of a turn on a late turn in. Or, something like poor exit speed on an early apex.