Track Attitude Question
sobering thought,
not saying when or where, but a surgeon rolled his car when a guy pulled his car back on the track after running his right side wheels off. He jerked it back into the passing car driven by the surgeon. the doctor's arm was outside the car as it rolled multiple times
this was at a hpde event. now, how would you feel if you were either driver?
it is supposed to be fun, its a challenge but remember there are consequences.
I know a number of the people reading this post know at least one guy who has rolled their evo. Luckily the guy I know only had to pay his loan off for the balled up car.
not saying when or where, but a surgeon rolled his car when a guy pulled his car back on the track after running his right side wheels off. He jerked it back into the passing car driven by the surgeon. the doctor's arm was outside the car as it rolled multiple times
this was at a hpde event. now, how would you feel if you were either driver?
it is supposed to be fun, its a challenge but remember there are consequences.
I know a number of the people reading this post know at least one guy who has rolled their evo. Luckily the guy I know only had to pay his loan off for the balled up car.
Lastly, I'd have to concede the "MR guy's" point that if you are tracking under the auspices that no point-bys are required, and someone freaks out when they are being passed, the first thing I'd have to ask is "why was that person (i.e. person that freaked) allowed to run with that group?"
The second thing is "Why would you lift in mid-corner in a RWD car?"
The second thing is "Why would you lift in mid-corner in a RWD car?"
secondly.. no one knows if he lifted or not.. maybe he was pushed out in to the marbles.. riverside gets dirty out there.
Our HPDE and TT events here in the Midwest are nothing like that. NO ONE wants to be the guy that tags someones car; I ran a full season last year and there were ZERO body contact incidents and no damaged HPDE or TT cars. All year long. I wouldn't be as far along in my 'development' as a driver if it weren't for the help and coaching received from so many people at the track (Jon K even helped me bleed my brakes at Mid Ohio last August). I try and give back as much as I can - offering advice on everything from lines to mods to what a new guys need to bring to the track that first day. We're doing this for fun, right? I didn't miss a sign-up form to get paid did I??? 
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Our HPDE and TT events here in the Midwest are nothing like that. NO ONE wants to be the guy that tags someones car; I ran a full season last year and there were ZERO body contact incidents and no damaged HPDE or TT cars. All year long. I wouldn't be as far along in my 'development' as a driver if it weren't for the help and coaching received from so many people at the track (Jon K even helped me bleed my brakes at Mid Ohio last August). I try and give back as much as I can - offering advice on everything from lines to mods to what a new guys need to bring to the track that first day. We're doing this for fun, right? I didn't miss a sign-up form to get paid did I???
Evolved Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 769
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From: South Carolina
I have been told the same things.. west-caost events are way more aggressive. The only west coast event I have done was the Super Street event, which was a competition.. so I can't really judge. I will say that the west coast guys at the NASA championships didn't seem bad to me, I had one "not let me by" but.. it was a competition as well, no reason for him to.
When I start my SeatTime drivers meetings I start it with my "5 rules" they are:
1. This is not a race
2. This is not a race
3. This is not a race
4. Have fun
5. This is not a race.
My #1 goal is to have my customers/friends go home with an intact car, and having had fun. We do passing by point-by only, and I am a stickler for the blue flags because of it.
For when I am at days, I am as friendly as I can, even when I am at competitions I am pretty friendly. I give set-up tips, driver coaching, like Greg said I even helped him bleed brakes. The way I see it is that it's supposed to be fun - competition or not, and being mean takes the fun out of it. (Don't expect me to back off on track though)
I would say "if you want to be mean go club racing" but even there, I have pretty much seen mostly good behavior including lending spare cars to you main competition, helping people do engine swaps so they will be there to race you, etc. Being a good person builds trust on and off track, and makes for better racing, and certainly better track experiences.
I will flash people If I am coming up on them, but it's not ment to be "mean" only like the blue flag in a race situation - information. In the AMS car there were times I had closing speeds on people of 70mph, and by giving them that signal I am making it safer for both of us.
When I start my SeatTime drivers meetings I start it with my "5 rules" they are:
1. This is not a race
2. This is not a race
3. This is not a race
4. Have fun
5. This is not a race.
My #1 goal is to have my customers/friends go home with an intact car, and having had fun. We do passing by point-by only, and I am a stickler for the blue flags because of it.
For when I am at days, I am as friendly as I can, even when I am at competitions I am pretty friendly. I give set-up tips, driver coaching, like Greg said I even helped him bleed brakes. The way I see it is that it's supposed to be fun - competition or not, and being mean takes the fun out of it. (Don't expect me to back off on track though)
I would say "if you want to be mean go club racing" but even there, I have pretty much seen mostly good behavior including lending spare cars to you main competition, helping people do engine swaps so they will be there to race you, etc. Being a good person builds trust on and off track, and makes for better racing, and certainly better track experiences.
I will flash people If I am coming up on them, but it's not ment to be "mean" only like the blue flag in a race situation - information. In the AMS car there were times I had closing speeds on people of 70mph, and by giving them that signal I am making it safer for both of us.
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento
I for one, love runing with the norcal TT group with NASA. Yes, it can be aggressive, but it's fun, and we have come to know and trust each other...but this is TT, sanctioned TT, and therefore COMPETITIVE. In track day situations I have not generally run upon an abundance of Aholes. I know the california rep, but most groups are pretty well-organized, and people are fairly nice to each other. It may be different in socal, I don't know. But for Every butthead I've met, I've met 5 straight up guys that are mature and respectful, and don't take chances with their, or anyone else' car.
greg does a nice job running the socal TT. he is pretty adamant that if you are faster than the guy in front of you, you will have to wait for the guy to get 3 clean laps before passing and potentially improving your spot on the grid for the next session.
nevertheless, it is sometimes difficult to pass the guy in front especially if you are within a second of their laptimes. i have been on the *** of guys late in sessions and most won't concede unless you make an aggressive pass attempt. there aren't many point-bys and i usually will have to pass under braking. i have also had several guys attempt a repass back out of the corner.
it's fun, but you definitely want to know the guys you are running with. it's also a good idea to have some safety equipment running TT.
nevertheless, it is sometimes difficult to pass the guy in front especially if you are within a second of their laptimes. i have been on the *** of guys late in sessions and most won't concede unless you make an aggressive pass attempt. there aren't many point-bys and i usually will have to pass under braking. i have also had several guys attempt a repass back out of the corner.
it's fun, but you definitely want to know the guys you are running with. it's also a good idea to have some safety equipment running TT.
although I feel the answers are obvious I'll still humor this with a reply since you put so much effort into it.
do you help as many people as you can or do you want to keep your 'secrets?
Honestly, depends if its a competition or just a track day, depends on who it is too.... for the most part I will help anyone that asks for it. I am not the kind of person that just walks around & gives advice etc to people that dont ask for it, i think that sort of behaviour comes across as pompous.
do you show courtesy and try and encourage newer/younger drivers or do you try and intimidate them to make your self feel superior?
Always try to help & be nice at the track.. it is no the place to feel superior, we all know there is always someone who is faster, all relative.
do you think posting a great time is a success or is it how many cars you can pass in one day?
It's about the time you pick up through-out the day or over the year, your own self-progression, us more experienced guys know that passing a car means nothing.
do you think about the consequences of every move or do you let the other guy worry about it?
Gentleman racers always think of the consequences, never assume anyone else knows where you are or where you are going.
i just got the evo.. i just met barfly and nils.. i make fun of them here.. but would race with them anytime... at redline i even ran to the garage to let nils know they were re-running our session.. and he beat me.. dick..
- HA HA! but seriously, I woulda done the same thing if I was in your boat...
so stand up people.. good experiences? bad?.. people you trust?.. people you would never race with?
I think it takes alot to **** me off, im pretty patient & easy going.. BUT.. im a pretty aggressive driver and I do not have patience for drivers that completely forget about faster drivers behind them. The evo was not my first track car.... & having driven much slower cars have taught me that you need to be aware of ALL your surroundings, being on top off traffic means infront & from behind.
Having that said there are a couple of drivers I have scuffled with a bit at the track, all of them very inexperienced, all of them over-driving their cars, all of the completely out-of-control... but were talking like 5 people over the last 6-7 years.
A good example was this dude at teh cal speedway event, it was raining hard, barely visible, he's driving some POS turboed is300 with nopi tuner style paint job... all over the place, I saw the guy almost wreck 3 different guys, I was on his bumper for 3 laps and he refused to step aside.. he was so out of control that I actually complained about him to race control.. first time I have ever done somethign like that.
I try to be patient when newbs completely ignore their rear view mirror, usually give them 2-3 turns to see me & point me by, after that (pending its a open passing group) I will safely pass them. They might think I make a risky pass, but I know that my over taking is as safe as I can make it.
Internet vs. Real Life
I find it interesting that I barely ever see guys with attitudes at the track, yet on forums there is always little scuffles going on... behaviour is drastically different.. communication is alot more open & better in real life.. you can read alot from someones facial expression (such as sarcasm etc).
I do think that the Evo is an easy car to drive & I understand that sometimes it yeilds false confidence in newer drivers... not everyone obviously, but some. What drives me nuts about some newbs is the whole 'part A + part B = a faster car' mentality... like some dude that takes their car to the track once a year & thinks that makes them a fast track dude or something.. & keeps on yapping about how their car is a track car... nah, it just isnt like that.
Nobody in their right mind does this (tracking) thinking its gonna make them money or give them glory, we do this cause its like playtime, its about having fun... so why go to a track and be all full of attitude when its about having fun in the first place.... its about that day, that track, your car & your driving.
pfffffeeewwww... now that was alot of typing.. where is my pulitzer dammnit?
lol
n
do you help as many people as you can or do you want to keep your 'secrets?
Honestly, depends if its a competition or just a track day, depends on who it is too.... for the most part I will help anyone that asks for it. I am not the kind of person that just walks around & gives advice etc to people that dont ask for it, i think that sort of behaviour comes across as pompous.
do you show courtesy and try and encourage newer/younger drivers or do you try and intimidate them to make your self feel superior?
Always try to help & be nice at the track.. it is no the place to feel superior, we all know there is always someone who is faster, all relative.
do you think posting a great time is a success or is it how many cars you can pass in one day?
It's about the time you pick up through-out the day or over the year, your own self-progression, us more experienced guys know that passing a car means nothing.
do you think about the consequences of every move or do you let the other guy worry about it?
Gentleman racers always think of the consequences, never assume anyone else knows where you are or where you are going.
i just got the evo.. i just met barfly and nils.. i make fun of them here.. but would race with them anytime... at redline i even ran to the garage to let nils know they were re-running our session.. and he beat me.. dick..
- HA HA! but seriously, I woulda done the same thing if I was in your boat...
so stand up people.. good experiences? bad?.. people you trust?.. people you would never race with?
I think it takes alot to **** me off, im pretty patient & easy going.. BUT.. im a pretty aggressive driver and I do not have patience for drivers that completely forget about faster drivers behind them. The evo was not my first track car.... & having driven much slower cars have taught me that you need to be aware of ALL your surroundings, being on top off traffic means infront & from behind.
Having that said there are a couple of drivers I have scuffled with a bit at the track, all of them very inexperienced, all of them over-driving their cars, all of the completely out-of-control... but were talking like 5 people over the last 6-7 years.
A good example was this dude at teh cal speedway event, it was raining hard, barely visible, he's driving some POS turboed is300 with nopi tuner style paint job... all over the place, I saw the guy almost wreck 3 different guys, I was on his bumper for 3 laps and he refused to step aside.. he was so out of control that I actually complained about him to race control.. first time I have ever done somethign like that.
I try to be patient when newbs completely ignore their rear view mirror, usually give them 2-3 turns to see me & point me by, after that (pending its a open passing group) I will safely pass them. They might think I make a risky pass, but I know that my over taking is as safe as I can make it.
Internet vs. Real Life
I find it interesting that I barely ever see guys with attitudes at the track, yet on forums there is always little scuffles going on... behaviour is drastically different.. communication is alot more open & better in real life.. you can read alot from someones facial expression (such as sarcasm etc).
I do think that the Evo is an easy car to drive & I understand that sometimes it yeilds false confidence in newer drivers... not everyone obviously, but some. What drives me nuts about some newbs is the whole 'part A + part B = a faster car' mentality... like some dude that takes their car to the track once a year & thinks that makes them a fast track dude or something.. & keeps on yapping about how their car is a track car... nah, it just isnt like that.
Nobody in their right mind does this (tracking) thinking its gonna make them money or give them glory, we do this cause its like playtime, its about having fun... so why go to a track and be all full of attitude when its about having fun in the first place.... its about that day, that track, your car & your driving.
pfffffeeewwww... now that was alot of typing.. where is my pulitzer dammnit?
lol
n
+1 The fact that you can't sleep the night before because all you hear is engines, the smell of the gasoline when someone launches from the pits, the smell of the rubber all around the track, the smell of worked brakes in the "staging" areas, the sheer amount of hardware at the track, the awesome instructors who clap or give you a hard time, the testing, the tuning, ...and the thrill of driving on a track you used to have to WATCH people race on as a kid....that is my attitude...sheer joy..like all the problems and bull**** in the world just fades away.
Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
From: By the water
I would agree with what the others are saying with the attitude of people at the events getting worse and worse.
There seems to be alot more aggression involved in the whole 'racing' thing. When in reality we are there to have a good time at the track?
I would blame the Fast and the Furious movies and the new one Redline that is coming out soon.
Be humble, be friendly and enjoy your day at the racetrack.
Just remember this. "You think you are fast, there is always someone that is faster!"
Happy tracking!
There seems to be alot more aggression involved in the whole 'racing' thing. When in reality we are there to have a good time at the track?
I would blame the Fast and the Furious movies and the new one Redline that is coming out soon.
Be humble, be friendly and enjoy your day at the racetrack.
Just remember this. "You think you are fast, there is always someone that is faster!"
Happy tracking!
Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 400
Likes: 1
From: Columbus, OH
Interesting, I have been using a new attitude, and some people take it the wrong way.
I have to use the James Hunt Theory of Reverse Psychology. When I race I have to expect nothing of myself or I get wierd and can't race right. But monday through saturday I have a positive attitude and visualize good performances, its just that no one sees that.
Remember that one mans positive attitude is another mans negative attitude. Don't judge or pretend like you know whats good for other people.
I have to use the James Hunt Theory of Reverse Psychology. When I race I have to expect nothing of myself or I get wierd and can't race right. But monday through saturday I have a positive attitude and visualize good performances, its just that no one sees that.
Remember that one mans positive attitude is another mans negative attitude. Don't judge or pretend like you know whats good for other people.
I've been driving and instructing at track events for around 10 years now. Most of the folks I've seen have been level-headed and have had good attitudes. But you do see some arrogant, unskilled ****** from time to time. Lots of these guys seem to be "import tuner" types with lots of dubious mods on their cars and a grossly over-inflated sense of their own driving skill that can only come from overdosing on Best Motoring DVD's.
Also, I've seen an increasing number young, inexperienced guys whose only track experience is unstructured lapping and "time attack" type events. Because they drive fast cars, they run quickish times...so they get bumped to fast classes. Within 1 season, they're convinced that they're now "good drivers" fully deserving to run in the advanced/solo groups. They generally ball their cars up one day and leave the hobby forever.
I've also noticed that some organizations attract more of these guys than others. I've learned to stick with clubs that attract a more mature crowd.
Emre
Also, I've seen an increasing number young, inexperienced guys whose only track experience is unstructured lapping and "time attack" type events. Because they drive fast cars, they run quickish times...so they get bumped to fast classes. Within 1 season, they're convinced that they're now "good drivers" fully deserving to run in the advanced/solo groups. They generally ball their cars up one day and leave the hobby forever.
I've also noticed that some organizations attract more of these guys than others. I've learned to stick with clubs that attract a more mature crowd.
Emre
On track, I flash my brights when approaching slowpokes in an effort to say, "Get out the way, foo', Warrtalon is comin'."
In the pits, I harass and smacktalk the exotics owners and race car owners letting them know I was able to run one fast lap out of 10 that beat all 15 of their race laps while ignoring the fact they were wheel-to-wheel and fighting for position.
During the download sessions, I make sure all the other slowpokes in TT/HPDE4 know that they need to make every effort to get out of my way without me having to slow down so that I can get the fastest lap EVER.
During the lunch break, I chastise the corner workers for not using more blue flags to help get the slowpokes to get out of my way.
In the pits, I harass and smacktalk the exotics owners and race car owners letting them know I was able to run one fast lap out of 10 that beat all 15 of their race laps while ignoring the fact they were wheel-to-wheel and fighting for position.
During the download sessions, I make sure all the other slowpokes in TT/HPDE4 know that they need to make every effort to get out of my way without me having to slow down so that I can get the fastest lap EVER.
During the lunch break, I chastise the corner workers for not using more blue flags to help get the slowpokes to get out of my way.
... I hope everyone realizes he is just joking. In general, I always try to be curtious to everyone. I have no secrets as I am a beginner myself and try to help everyone with the basics and good track etiquette. I have more background in theory than partical experience. Yes I sometimes talk trash but it is only with people I am close to and consider friends. Posting a good time is a personal accomplishment for me to judge how I may be improving as a driver.
Passing cars doesn't mean squat to me. The less time I spend around other cars the safer I am. If there is a faster car/driver I immediately point him by, no point in holding him up. I usually keep my distance from everyone but I sometimes find myself catching up to people during corner exit. I don't try to ride someone bumper but sometimes unintentionally I find myself catching up during braking zones. Anyways its not worth the risk to pass during a turn. I am constantly thinking about the dangers involved and always try to minimize the risk. Any HPDE I can drive the car back home in one piece, hone my skill and learn something new is a successful event.
I find it funny how the dude,MRinChrist, in the other thread seems to be a religious person but has a crappy attitude towards others on the track and is ready to fight. I guess just because you are religious, doesn't automatically make you a "nice" person. Interesting conundrum don't ya think?
Hit too close to home?
All I'm saying is that some groups are more relaxed and friendly than others in terms of attitude. Different clubs attract different drivers. The folks at the events I go to are very helpful, friendly, welcoming, and supportive of each other. If Ryan is turned off by the attitude of MRinChrist in the other thread, he should look into running with some other groups that cater to a different crowd.
Emre
All I'm saying is that some groups are more relaxed and friendly than others in terms of attitude. Different clubs attract different drivers. The folks at the events I go to are very helpful, friendly, welcoming, and supportive of each other. If Ryan is turned off by the attitude of MRinChrist in the other thread, he should look into running with some other groups that cater to a different crowd.
Emre
Last edited by Kayaalp; Apr 24, 2007 at 10:23 AM.