Rob W.

iTrader: (8)

Hi all,

I've been lurking on here for the past couple weeks trying to educate myself, and I finally decided to make my first post. I've searched the archives and read some of the track-related posts, but I'm not finding the detail I was looking for. I apologize if these items have already been discussed.

I have a 300ZX twin turbo with lots of mods that I use mostly just on track days. Having a second car that is basically a track car sounds like more fun that it actually is. Lately, I've been spending way too much time with maintainence/repairs and such, so I've decided to sell it, sell my WRX, and get an EVO. But I'm not sure if a stock EVO will fill my needs of both a daily driver (I can handle the rough ride, noise, etc.) AND track use.

Handling:
For those of you who are experience drivers (on a track, I mean) and have had your EVO on a track, can you give me some feedback? How is the handling at the limit? I read a couple comments here about it understeering badly. How bad is it? Is it something that could be easily fixed with a new rear anti-sway bar, tire pressures, etc, or is the problem more deep-rooted than that? I went through this understeer battle with my Z, so I'm especially concerned about it. I'm hoping to keep the car fairly stock (no expensive set of coilovers, etc.), but a sway bar would not be a big deal. I had the opportunity to drive an S2000 on the track recently, and it was a revelation (FUN!). I know the EVO's not going to have its balance so tilted towards oversteer, but I'm hoping it's not a hopeless cause.

Brakes:
I'm VERY excited to try these Brembos out. If any car is going to be track-capable with it's stock brakes, it seems like the EVO is a good bet. Has anyone found the limit of these things and actually overheated them? What failed first? (fluid boiled, pad faded, rotor warped?) I was planning on getting the dealer-optional brake ducts as well. Did anyone get these? Worth it? (at $150)

Engine:
Has anyone had any overheating problems on the track? I'm not real concerned about this, based on the engine's bulletproof history and reputation, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Any other track-related comments? How are the stock tires on a track? I'm not going to be buying Victoracer's this time, so stock tire performance is important to me.

If anyone has any advice about what options to get/avoid, I'd also appreciate that. Right now, I'm thinking: CF spoiler, NO sunroof, brake ducts, 6-disc in-dash changer, cargo net, and the sill plates.

Sorry for the long message. Thanks for any advice,

Rob

P.S. Anyone want to buy a 380HP 300ZXTT? (79K miles, asking $12,500) Or a bone-stock '02 WRX (30K, $19,000). Let me know!

DB8GSR

Handling is a dream, stock. I love it but it can be better. There is body roll that needs work on.

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Brakes:
I'm VERY excited to try these Brembos out. If any car is going to be track-capable with it's stock brakes, it seems like the EVO is a good bet. Has anyone found the limit of these things and actually overheated them? What failed first? (fluid boiled, pad faded, rotor warped?)

No signs of fade or warpage when I tracked mine. Brakes are awesome. Driving style can vary on how you use them.

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Engine:
Has anyone had any overheating problems on the track?

Didn't experience overheating either. Ran perfectly fine the whole time.

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Any other track-related comments? How are the stock tires on a track?

Tires were great. Became very sticky once it was heated but I also felt that the car was sliding.

Here's 2 vids of me at the track. Not the greatest driving but you get a feel on how the Evo reacted.

http://sparrow.its.berkeley.edu/ray/c5chase(2).wmv

http://sparrow.its.berkeley.edu/ray/nsxchase(3).wmv


Enjoy

Secret Chimp

iTrader: (2)

I have tracked my Evo. And before that I tracked my Type R. and I have attended a pile of autocrosses over the past few years. but I wouldn't consider myself really all that experienced.....but here are my opinions.

On throttle in the turns, at the limit, the car tends to understeer. The amount it understeers is dependant on the type of corner. If you are used to driving your Z on track, and like the way the throttle kicks out the rear, the Evo will disappoint. Or at the very least, you will have to learn a new way to drive. this new way of driving could well be as fast or faster on track than the Z...guess it depends on how modded that car was. The car transitions well into the corners. The understeering doesn't begin till you are at the very edge of adhesion of the rear wheels also. All it takes is throttle modulation to keep the car going the way you want it to....ie very light thrittle lift is needed to get the back end to come around.

But once the rear is pointing you in the right direction, you can throttle out of the corner and let the AWD claw the tramac. more or less a point ans shoot affair.....

Regarding the brakes, you will likely find that you are more prone to warping rotors than overheating the rest of the system. I slightly warped my rotors on course...but I did drive about 200 track miles that weekend. I upgraded to Motul fluid........had no fading problems at all!

I had no overheating issues on track. Granted it was only about 65 that weekend.....The car kept a normal temp the whole time on track. I did have to refill the IC sprayer a few times.....maybe that helped keep things a lil cooler?

The stock tires did very well for me on the course. I had about 2k miles on em before tracking. So they experienced quite a few heat cycles before hitting the course. The rubber tends to ball up and stick to the inside edge of the tread (similar to the way the V700's shed their treads). My edges wore a little excessively. But I think it was a tire pressure issue. But the tread blocks did not chunk at all! I now have 9k miles on those same tires...and they look like they'll last me till 15k miles.

My advice to you would be to not buy any dealership accessories at all. They can all be purchased afterwards for appx 70% of the dealership price.

SC~

Rob W.

iTrader: (8)

Thanks guys. I appreciate the info.

How bad is the body roll? I ride in my buddies 2nd gen GSX (stock suspension) and I'm blown away at how much body roll there is. How does it compare to that car? Same? Less?

So Secret Chimp, you say that with a little throttle lift mid-turn, the rear end will come around? That's great to hear. On my Z, lifting the throttle will stop understeer and tuck the nose into the turn better, but the rear end still stays planted. The only way I can get some slip angle is to trail brake into the turn, and I'm getting sick of it. I want the finesse of throttle adjustment (trail braking is not as easy to do consistently).

How does the turn-in performance compare to your old Type R?

I'm a big fan of Motul 600 fluid. I plan to run the same in the EVO.

I'm real happy to hear how those tires perform! Thanks for the info.

If not the dealer, where do you get the accessories from? I assume online somewhere?

Thanks again,

Rob

spyderturbo

Those are some AWESOME videos!!!

Nice job!

Rob W.

iTrader: (8)

I agree. Thanks for the videos!

You held a much better racing line than that NSX, btw. He was all over the place.

I think you might want to adjust your camera mount though. It seemed a big jiggly.

My Porsche buddy spent $178 at racerpartswholesale.com to get a nice camera mount. Being a cheap SOB, I went to Meijer's and bought the smallest/cheapest tripod they had ($11), and a variety pack of bungie cords ($5). I put the tripod on the rear package shelf (it's a 2-seater, remember) and bungie'd it down in all directions. It wiggled a bit, so I wedged a towel between the camera and the roof. Now it's perfect. Rock solid. Total investment: $16.

Scot

iTrader: (6)

no overheating.....better lap times stock for stock than S2000's (on any track)........better brake pads would be smart....

I think these pics were taken on my first and second lap out...the car died on the 3rd lap...the intake vacumn hose came off...that is why I am getting passed and why I am parked on the infield.

I tightened and it and the car ran great for the next two sessions.

EvoNick

In 7000 miles, I've tracked the car 6 times, and I use it as a daily/track car. It was tracked with stock Yokos, ATE SUper BLue, stock pads, then Hawk Blues, and the brake guides.

Handling: for a stock car, it's beautiful on the track. Pretty neutral unless it's a tight hairpin, in which case the car understeers. A slight to moderate lift will swing the car around until you're pointed at the apex, and then you can floor it. The AWD seems to cover up a lot of errors, and if I drove other cars the way I can drive the EVO I'd be spinning a lot. I doubt you'd need a different rear sway bar yet. The rear wheels already can lift in a turn.

Brakes: I've only run the car with the brake guides, but even so it's not ebnough. The brakes get VERY hot, although performance doesn't change. The stock pads are useless, they fade quickly. Use Hawk Blues or any of a number of hi-perf pads. I don't think there's enough airflow to the brakes. The calipers get so hot that they have turned a dark burgundy red, and presuming Brembo uses the same paint on Porsche and Ferrari brakes, I don't see the same problem there. The rotors seem to have lasted, and nothing's warped. Remove the center caps - they will melt and/or pop off the car. And use Super Blue or Motul, bleed before every event. I'd like to try some real ducting next to see if I can bring the temps down.

Overheating: None. I've driven teh car on 105 degree days.

Tires: First thing to change. The car is limited by its tires. They're very good, but they howl around turns. They don't seem to get greasy when it gets hot, but I'd do tires before I did anything else.

IOW, the stock EVO with different brake fluid, different pads, and different tires makes a great daily/track car. That's all I do with it!

xcdan

Bottom line, you will not be dissapointed. The handling of the Evo is insane and I have had no problem with understeer. If you want the back to come around just let off the gas a little mid turn and your in business. When exiting a corner you simply get grip, grip and more grip. I have had no problems with overheating or with brake rotors warpping which is lucky because that has happened to me in The 944 turbo. I would highly recomend the Evo as a Track car and a daily driver, an s2000 cant even compare. Hope you join the club and have some fun.

//Power On

Dan

TwiNpnOy84

Nice vids!!

JasonS

iTrader: (1)

I've tracked mine at VIR and it was truly awesome.
I ran with 235/40 Ectsa race compounds, and it was understeer at the limit, with great lift throttle rotation...occasionally followed by a nice long drift out of the corner.
Was running in the 2:19 range, first time at the facility, no mods on the car.
The calipers are, as earlier stated, now burgundy in color, and I am minus two center caps, one gone, one partially melted. I got a second set of factory wheels for the track tires, and the lower sidewall helps the acceleration, and there are few tracks that IHMO you could see the 158ish top speed anyway.
No problems with the brakes, no fade or warping, with about five hours of track time. Remember to not set the e-brake and also to roll the car back and forth every couple minutes after a run so the pad doesn't sit on one area of the rotor right after the session.
All in all, love the car, I think you will also.

Mister2zx3

My friends and family have been running their evo's quite a bit a local tracks and for the practical 4 door nature of the car it is hands down remarkable! We've run sessions in 100'F ambiant temps, probably about 125 - 130'F track temps with no problems on stock Evos and one modified making 340whp. They do push at the limit, and coil overs have gone on. Hopefully tomorrow we'll all be back out at Texas Motor Speedway on the infield and we'll get the coil overs set up to be able to steer the 340whp Evo with the throttle. The extra power with the stock understeering setup really makes in annoying, becuase you push out real far, heh. Fingers crossed tomorrow we won't be pushing out, but will be using the throttle and less steering or a little counter steering for some real fast exits speeds!

Also all the experienced evo owners I know have had no problems with clutches, brakes, or anything else. Even the 340whp Evo runs great at the track with the stock clutch and WOT shifts through 2nd 3rd and 4th. at least so far, as it gets up towards 400whp, we think the clutch may become a weak link. So far the nut behind the wheel is weakest point of the car, heh.

tsi90awd

evonick wrote:

Brakes: I've only run the car with the brake guides, but even so it's not ebnough. The brakes get VERY hot, although performance doesn't
change. The stock pads are useless, they fade quickly. Use Hawk Blues or any of a number of hi-perf pads. I don't think there's enough
airflow to the brakes. The calipers get so hot that they have turned a dark burgundy red, and presuming Brembo uses the same paint on
Porsche and Ferrari brakes, I don't see the same problem there. The rotors seem to have lasted, and nothing's warped. Remove the
center caps - they will melt and/or pop off the car. And use Super Blue or Motul, bleed before every event. I'd like to try some real ducting
next to see if I can bring the temps down.


My Evo is stock except for the brake cooling air guides, fresh high BP brake fluid, and Schroth harnesses. I've used the car at driving schools at Road America and Blackhawk farms, plus an autocross last week. That autocross was more like a short road course though (1.2 miles, 100 second time). I've been using the stock pads with no fade. BTW, I had FTD at that autocross with the second car 5 seconds behind. There wasn't much competition though.

I'm amazed at the difference reported in the brake performance. My brakes have worked fine with the stock pads, getting no fade (although with slight judder at the end of the Blackhawk event). My calipers haven't discolored very much and I haven't lost the wheel center caps. The instructions for installing the air guides call for cutting a part of the air dam away on both sides to allow better airflow to the guides. If your guides are installed by a dealer, you may want to check that that cutting was done.

I continue to be impressed with the track performance of the Evo. I don't have a noticable problem with understeer and I love the way you can throttle steer on sweepers. Some of the variability being reported in understeer performance may come from different wheel alignments. You definitely have to max the front camber. The specifications say rotating the bolt will give you -2 degrees, but I only got -1.6 which seems to be pretty typical from what others have reported. I run -0.6 at the back and 0 toe front and back.

The main handling/track issue I have found is with rapid left/right (or right/left) transitions. There is a fair amount of body roll and resulting "lag time" in steering response. But then we get a pretty good ride on the street because of the relatively soft springs. If someone has experience with springs or roll bars that reduce body roll, I'd be really interested in hearing about it.

EvoNick

I'm running out west, at Laguna Seca, Sears, and ThunderHill. I'm guessing that reported differences in brake performance have to do with both driving style and track layout. Both Laguna and TH are hard on brakes. I also drive very aggressively. FWIW, other EVOs I've seen run at the tracks I run also have discolored calipers and melting center caps.

CincyEvo

I took my 3 week old, bone-stock Evo to Putnam Park race track in Indiana last evening for a lapping day. It was the fastest "door slammer" there, except for the Ferrari F40 and the T1 SCCA Z-06 (which wsa on race rubber, and still wasn't all that much faster). It was faster then the RX-7's, Porsche 911's, including 2 turbos, Z-3 M Coupe, and a supercharged Mustang Cobra, among others, a few of which were on race rubber. It did not overheat, the brakes did not fade, the tires squealed non-stop but had decent grip, I got 4 mpg.

The car is a bit of a "dancing pig" on corner entry, with some push and body roll, mostly due to running on street rubber that was not nearly equal to the car's mamouth on-track capability. About 1/2 thru each turn, however, it really hooked up and the all-wheel drive & turbo power launched it forward with a huge lunge to the next corner.

It could not keep up with the Cobra or 911 turbos on the straight (altho it was not left in their dust either), but it really left them behind in the curves, especially with its excellent exit speed. The handling was not unsettled by hitting the curbs and, on one tight right hander, the fast line was with the 2 outside tires just on the track and the rest of the car in the grass, in true rally fashion.

How fast was it? I was turning high 1'24's and low 1'25's. A friend who came in 2nd at the SCCA Runoffs a while back in his T2 Mustang Cobra was turning mid 1'22's on Hoosier race rubber, racing shocks, race seat, full harness, racing brake pads, etc., when he was at Putnam recently. On my Miata, race tires are worth 5-6" a lap there, so 1 1'18"-1'20" does not seem impossible for the Evo, which is Viper territory there.