SWOLN, what is your track experience?

l8r)

 

Most of my track experience has not been in an Evo, it's with karts. With karting I have hundreds of hours behind the wheel. I'll usually stay out as long as I can. Sometimes, its more than I can bare, but I muster up enough energy usually, to equal my best time of the day.

a side note: kind of a qualifer if you will. When I kart, it's usually with the likes of the Scuderia Ferrari guys,(only one guy is really fast) and with some of the Champion Porsche guys, and a guy who is the Southern Karting Winner. Also, my friend John Ziegleman, raced Formula Mazda, he also instructs for Skip Barber. All of these guys are die hard drivers. It's nice when everyone you race with has respect for one another . Anyway I compete with them usually.

The Winning Southern Karting guy, Dario, weighs what I do, 190lbs, and I can stay with him in a slower kart.

At Sebring it was the my friends Evo and my other buddies Turbo NSX. I can drive well enough to be allowed to use their cars at will, although I'd never ask or abuse the liberties given to me by them.



BTW, I got my car aligned with -2.0 camber up front with 1/16th out for Toe. Rear: -1.2 camber and Toe was also 1/16 out. The car fells way faster out of the corners. I had to alter my driving style a little, but I expected that. I also had the ability to add more front camber though some camber bolts the alignment shop had, but I opted out for now. Seemingly the car is neutral in the turn maybe a tad of push. I need to drive it on the edge a little more to get the full understanding of what it's doing.

 

Cool. I posted this in another thread ... if you search the motorsport forum, you'll find mostly good advice about prepping your Evo for track use ...

1. Do these things first:
--- SS brake lines
--- Flush your brake fluid and replace with Motul RBF600 or Castrol SRF
--- Get better brake pads ... something matched up to the stock tires
--- Keep your stock rims and tires (you can get good condition stock Advans relatively cheap when you wear out the first set)
2. Go and learn your car in this state (with your karting experience, plan on this taking maybe 2 HPDE events)
3. Now sit down and think about how you want to improve your car.

You'll probably find that after you learn to push the car in its stock state, that you will want to address the stock handling and grip level first, meaning an improved suspension and better tires. After you're comfortable with a grippier, better turning Evo, you'll want to add some power into the mix (basic bolt-ons for maybe 300-350 whp on an IX).

l8r)

 

Just remember:

Good autocrossers always make good roadracers.

Good roadracers don't always make good autocrossers.

If you're just starting out, autocross will teach you the limits of the car with a fairly low level of risk. You are also dealing with making several inputs per second, which really helps to slow things down once you get on a track.

 

My input on the subject is that you can have your car set up to do both decently (auto-x /road race) with minor changes, but you are compromising having a competitive car on both.

1) Competitive auto-x evos usally run high rear spring rates(in relation to the front) considered too high by most road racers 12k/16k ballpark. The non conventional high rear rates opposed to the front is a must, in order to keep rear inside wheel to the ground and promote rotation.

2) Competitive road racing evo need serious braking sytem capable of surviving fade and heat generated by a road course (stronger clamping force, better fluid, agressive pads, colling ducts etc.).
If such a set up found its way in an auto-x car, it would not work as the pads would never reach optimum temp, the clamping force (hypotetically) would harm the feel and high modulation needed for auto-x use. I remember talking about set-up with Mark Daddio a while back and he told me that he likes the stock caliper and pads as they allowed him to modulate the pedal better and did not feel like an on/off switch of upgraded systems.

3) The sway bar situation is complicated, most succesfull auto-x run stockish rates and controll body roll and wheel lift with higher spring rates. The reason is that SB make one wheel more dependant of the other and remove grip from the sticking side to help the challenged one. The same theory should also apply to road racing but I have not seen a succesfull road race evo without upgraded bars running high rates.

4) Alignment is usually done differently on the two arenas. What is loose in auto-x is undriveable or not safe on the road course, for example you'll find autocrossers running rear toe out(seeking rotation) that would make the car prone to throttle lift oversteer and unstable during road racing heavy braking.

5) There is usually different tire set up. Auto-x is the world of "bigger is better". Cram the widest, softest tire "du jour" you can for the class and you are golden. I know one can argue for not getting enough heat to justify such wide tires theory but it works. Road racing tend to not go as wide as straight line speed and drag come into consideration; harder compound are also usually used in road racing as the soft auto-x tires would quickly overheat after a few laps.

6) Aero is a important for road racing due to the speed reached while some of the most credited auto-x car have almost no aero work as the lower speed probably do not justify the effort.

 

I am an example of having a setup that is good for both road racing and auto-x, but it's primarily designed for road racing, so it's not 100% optimum for auto-x.

Somewhat to the contrary on #1, though, I do run 12k/16k (700lb/900lb) spring rates for my road race setup with a stock rear sway.

 

How well a dual-purpose car does ultimately depends on how well it's set up. I would agree that brakes are a concern and probably different setups are optimal for each.

Our STU Evo (Diehl/Irvine) is just as home on the track - setup/balance wise - as it is at the autox. Considering it's been the fastest STU Evo at Nationals two years running, I think you can safely say a dual-purpose car is a realistic goal.

All IMO of course.

 

I was talking to Mueller about a front sway just the other day. He sez 'cuz it'll pick the front wheel up at the same time you need it on the ground to grab traction, it's not advisable

 

I run a larger front anti roll bar on both my autocross car, and the AMS time attack car. For what that is worth.
Mark

 

Is that a larger front sway bar with a stock rear, or upgraded bars (front and rear) with the front rates higher than the rear?

 

one thing to keep in mind. springs and swaybars have virtually no effect on overall weight transfer. They only dictate how far the car moves (vertically or roll) in response the weight transfer on the car.

Running the biggest FSB you can find has it's advantages, but the FSB by itself is not going to make the car perform well.

 

I run more spring rate in the rear than the front, and run larger front and rear bars, although the rear bar is less of an increase from stock as the front bar is.

 

Is it safe to assume the big bar is used to keep the front of the car flat for 2 things: 1) maintain contact patch in the front, 2) reduce the tendency of the front to "roll over on itself" and also keep the inside rear on the ground?

My guess is softer front springs can then be used to maintain compliance and keep understeer to a minimum.

Anyone know of a list of swaybars and their OD's & ID's (if tubular) on the net? I've got a nice spreadhseet going I would love to plug those in to.

 

they are drastically different in my opinion.. and the two cant really be compared...

auto-x, generally you need instant rotation becuase of the radius of the corners, and slow speeds...

road racing you need to allow a car to turn, take a set, and then work its way through the corner.... its a much more methodical approach.

there are soo sooo many different ways to set a car up, its ridiculous.

if you are going for a track car, do the basics listed, proper brakes, a good damper setup, a good/wheel tire combo, then go from there...

cheers

cb