Except for the point Warr made: more wear and tear on the Evo and its parts than the lighter cars... Unless the performance equalizer is adding weight.

 

As I've read.. I'm not understanding your input here. I asked a question, one guy answered how it worked for him, and you and a bunch of others don't answer, but critique my question. Not looking for arm-chair logic professors to come in here and question the validity of what I'm asking. I'm looking for those who can answer it. Simple as that.

 

Didn't ask if the Evo's weight caused more maintenance for it's owner. Simply asked if it was a disadvantage in competition. Thought it was pretty simple question, and thought those with the answer would chime in, and those that didn't , wouldn't. Was wrong about that I guess.

 

Car racing org's always seem to have politics as an issue. I got out of it 8 years ago because of that. Seemed except for the anything goes classes, you had a bunch of sniveling whiners, who show up at the track to walk around in driving suits, and whine because they get beat because so-and-so has an illegal car, or some other reason why they're getting the shaft. We had a 4 lap lead in night endurance race when a car came out of the pits without lug nut tightened. The resulting carnage brought out the pace car which dragged the pack (our car being first, caught the worst of it) through the debris. Our driver got a flat, we asked to bring him in for it, was given permission, made up the time we lost in the pits and still won. Powers that be had a big pow-wow after the fact and the second place whiner was allowed to participate (but not us), and we came to the track the next day to find out we were awarded 2nd. His argument was that we shouldn't have been allowed to come in,and despite the fact that we asked and were granted permission (by the pres of the POC no less) before we did it made no difference. The necessity to please the whiney whine-en-stein because his daddy was a board member or he had dirt on somebody, who knows... outweighed the facts.
The wonderful world of car racing, sent me back to bikes, where people race to race, and whiners don't last very long. Seems to be a necessary evil you need to either deal with in the car world, or move on. I decided that I would no longer participate with a car I personally owned. I would only drive if asked to do so by someone else. I was asked a few times since then, participated once , and then called it a day. The motorcycle road racing scene just had more for me than the car racing scene.

 

Driver mod anyone? Most people who drive Porsches can't drive it on the track. Get a good driver who is willing to push the Porsche as hard as the Evo and, depending on model, it will be a good race or the Porsche will just leave the Evo (TT, C4S, GT2, GT3). The Evo is easier to go fast in and makes average drivers seem like pros, but the Porsche, if driven correctly, will go just as fast.

 

There's really no answer to that, because its all relative. What mods are you allowed to do for the class? What other cars are you competing against?

Weight, in general, is a disadvantage. But you know that already.

If you mean, "Does the Evo's weight make it feel like you're herding a Clown Vic around the track?" then the answer is no. The car is quick, and has the power and traction to perform well given how much it weighs.

 

My point wasn't "Hey I wanna compete, is my weight gonna be a disadvantage"? The question was in reference to what I've been reading about the apparent heavy weight of the car causing owner/drivers frustration. Wanted to know what's it up against that would cause the weight to be a problem, and why doesn't it's power/handling overcome it. Wherever it's raced, in whatever classes it competes and against whichever cars it competes against. Looked as though there's a lot of guys racing it in many different classes. Once again, just what Marty wrote. He competes in "X" against "Y", and the "Y" gets an advantage over the Evo in an apparent effort to make it more competitive. Weight isn't an issue for him.
Wasn't a hypothetical question, and it looks like a lot of people took it that way.

 

I'll toss my 2 cents in. At a low autocross something as simple as a honda hatch can own and EVO. But that is in a parking lot full of orange cones that isn't very realistic or exciting to me. I like high speed autocrosses where you run a lap against the clock and see how you measure up to everyone else but those events are pricey for minimal track time.

I know alot of you frown on comparing results at HPDE's but I'm guessing that is where most people will end up. My group does call outs at HPDEs working in a few laps of "chase" to see who is faster than who. If you are running full out you'll also know what cars tend to be faster at the track.

As for the cars that perform well at lapping days..... C5 Z06, SVT cobra, SRT4 with sticky ickies, Moddified RX7s, ..... you get the idea.

The thing I like most about lapping days are all the cars need to be able to handle 30 minutes of WOT abuse. I've seen alot of really fast cars run one lap then over heat, lose brakes, and pop motors. I like that it takes a few laps to get tires and brakes up to optimum operating temp. Lastly I like that anything goes. You can throw the world at your car and no one can complain about how wide or sticky your tires are.

The HPDE is not a race for everyone...... but don't kid yourself.... 50% of those drivers are ***** to the wall.

As for the weight thing..... most cars are the same weight but the first time you chase a properly prepped RX7 you see the difference.

 

My point wasn't "Hey I wanna compete, is my weight gonna be a disadvantage"? The question was in reference to what I've been reading about the apparent heavy weight of the car causing owner/drivers frustration. Wanted to know what's it up against that would cause the weight to be a problem, and why doesn't it's power/handling overcome it. Wherever it's raced, in whatever classes it competes and against whichever cars it competes against. Looked as though there's a lot of guys racing it in many different classes. Once again, just what Marty wrote. He competes in "X" against "Y", and the "Y" gets an advantage over the Evo in an apparent effort to make it more competitive. Weight isn't an issue for him.
Wasn't a hypothetical question, and it looks like a lot of people took it that way.

 

http://www.supertunercar.com/index.html

There is our local class that the Evo competes in's main website. You can see the classing rules as well as the different ways they limit cars. Esp. the inlet restrictor.

Or go to NASA's website and look up the rules for TT events and see how the classing works there.

The Evo's weight is usually only a disadvantage if you let it be and choose to mod something else. There are cars in our STC class that have high hp and heavy weight and ones running 17 psi stock mods that weigh very very little and they are equally matched.

To further answer what I "think" is your question now: Yes, the heavy weight was very very frustrating in the Evo, but it made up for it in sheer power. Like ray sir 6's horribly OT comment: the Evo makes amatuers look like pros. But if you've driven a 2500 lb car on track and then drive the Evo, its a totally different experience, even if the Evo is just as fast or faster.

Was that better? I'm still assuming you're talking about road racing track events...

And if you don't want to go to STC's website here's the main thing I was talking about for our classing:

 

Really, weight by itself means nothing. It all comes down to power to weight ratio for acceleration and weight to suspension/tires/brakes for handling and braking and of course what are you comparing the Evo against. Couple quick notes, the Evo in T2 form (3480 min weight and 330whp +) has a much better power to weight than say the M3 (3500 min weight and maaaybe 300whp?) and in stock form id probably give the handling edge to the Evo as well but it would be very very close due to the M3 having the favored rwd platform, brakes are close from what ive seen but edge would go to the M3. Given this, the M3 just isnt competitive with similar drivers, so they allowed them "equalizers" to give the M3 better handling to make up for its lack of power. The scca is screwy but what they did with the Evo and say the M3 was the norm, the evo went straight to T1 and was getting toasted by the Vettes and Vipers so they added 100 pounds to the Evo and dropped it into T2 class. The M3 was in T2 and was not doing well, so they put in for upgraded susp, made a good case for it and was granted the upgrades (Turner Motorsports Suspension package #TMST2M3 allowed. This consists of front springs TMS600-10-250, rear springs TMS650-8-250, front sway bar #TMSF23.235, rear sway bar #TMSR23.327.). The Solstice GXP ZOK was an oops by the scca and they allowed it straight into T2 and allowed the ZOK package (springs, swaybars etc) and 275 tires on a car that had a min weight of 2950 pounds. Whoever made the case to the SCCA to have that approved without the car ever putting a tire on track, would make a great used car salesman, or politician for that matter So in roadracing, against the M3, the Evos weight is not an issue but an Evo vs a GXP, the weight does hurt it in braking and handling. Im still waiting for someone to get a GXP time attack car and put say a 50 trim in it, you would have one fast car.

hope this helps, Marty

 

Most solstice I see have a rainbow sticker on the back.

I hate all the racing politics and thats why I enjoy ***** to the wall HPDE action. Trick out your car however you like and see how it compares to other tricked out cars.

For me the problem with weight is additional cost of tires, brakes, and fuel. The honda crowd can stuff a B18C into a gutted hatch and run all season for nearly the same amount I spend in a day. I'm half tempted to build a track only hatch that I dolly to events! I figure I could save about $4k per year on expenses and that would pay for the car!

 

I autocrossed an A-Stock (turbo) Solstice Z0K last year. In stock form (non-Z0K), on 245's, the car is about even with the Evo. With 295's and the Z0K package, it absolutely smokes the Evo.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty much all over the map on this one. I have another thread going about the Evo at Willow and T8. With Willow, I'm an expert. Been racing bikes there every month since '95 or'06, and raced cars there a couple of years in the late '90's. OK, I'm at Mueller's yesterday, and he's talking about him setting the lap record in some Evo 8 on street tires. .32.9 I think, and I'm totally underwhelmed, as I've turned .29's in a '74 911 with a 3.2(Porsche claimed 217hp in'84 when the 3.2 came out), 8's and 9's, sway bars, proper chassis set up, but stock shocks. Car is lighter, but with AWD, better suspension, and more power, why doesn't the Evo do better? He keeps mentioning the Evo's weight, and it's a "Taxi-cab"
-Which brings me to this-:
I remember about the same time I was racing cars, the precursor to the American LeMans series (Petite Lemans?), had BMW 3-series, battling it out with 911 GT-3's. I remember the BMW's usually getting the best of the P's. Yes these were full-on possibly factory built 3's, but they still had to have all the heavy basics like the chassis, motor, drivetrain etc.. My point here is, the 3 is about equal or less impressive than then Evo stock.. Yes? Of all the Evo's and all the guys racing them, someone somewhere has had to have the money and hook-up to get the thing in line with the previously mentioned 3's. There's a lot of BMW's out there near this configuration, and knowing what I do about the costs of modding a BMW vs. the cost of modding an Evo, it seems that there would be a fair number of Evo's out there like this. Heck, I bought the Evo because of it's performance and relatively low cost of modding it, and I'm average Joe. I don't buy a car because it's hood emblem is gonna give me a facade of having lots of money. I buy it based on what it's gonna do for me.
The Evo is 3200 pounds, stock. The RS4 is almost a thousand pounds heavier, and has the equivilant of a Lotus sitting over it's front wheels. Weight at some point is relative. Some say that rear wheel drive (as with the 3) is a better platform for racing. I remember a long time ago the Audi A-series Quattro was booted out of some Euro touring series because the AWD had it spanking the competition. Maybe nowadays technology has got the rear wheel drive platform better, but with my limited knowledge on the subject I would think pulling and pushing at the same time is better than just pushing. If it's hard to follow what I'm trying to get at here, it's because I myself am confused. Knowing (thinking?) how good the base platform you get with this car, where are the 600-700hp, GT3-beating Evo's?
And as far as the Solstice being a fast car... I'm just gonna keep believing that Pontiac doesn't build fast cars. I need my world to have a certain order, and knowing that there's a stock Pontiac convertible out there that'll spank my car around the track of all places, will turn the world I live in, on it's ear. I can't have that right now.

 

My personal experience is on an autocross course, not a track. The Solstice is a lot more skittish than the Evo, so it would probably be tougher to drive fast on a track. I'm also comparing a stock Evo, with its relatively soft springs, strut-type suspension, and horrible body roll characteristics, to a car with springs and swaybars that were developed by the guys racing Solstices, adjustable Konis, a double A-arm "real suspension" at each corner, and gobs of extra tire.

Take both cars to something like autocross SP specs and the Evo will stomp the Solstice.

As far as drivetrains go, in my opinion, AWD > RWD > FWD. RWD gives a car better weight distribution. AWD can cause some unwanted understeer. The big difference is that with AWD you can get on the gas much earlier and much harder on corner exits.

For an extensive discussion on this, see the link below. Beware, you have to dig the meat of the argument out of 23 pages of *****ing and bull****. The upshot of the discussion is that people are arguing that the Evo should move to ASP because its competitive with stuff like prepared Z06's, GT3's, Exiges, and various other cars that have much better power to weight ratios, and its currently beating up on the C4s and M3s in BSP.

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/270208.aspx