1 Lap at Thill
1 Lap at Thill
http://vimeo.com/4110643
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C25PTG2L4hg
Read the description.
I have done 7 track days. Currently running 255/40/17 Toyo R1R, but they are dead now. Really thinking of getting some r-comps. 265/35/18 R888s or 265/35/18 BFG R1s. Making 294whp / 290wtq on GST Mustang Dyno.
What can i do to go faster? Any sections of the track, where i can improve on? 2:09.47 is my fastest lap. This one is 2:09:54.
Constructive comments please. If you suggest a certain mod, state why it would help and how much difference it will make, even if it may be super obvious. Thanks guys and have a great weekend.
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C25PTG2L4hg
Read the description.
I have done 7 track days. Currently running 255/40/17 Toyo R1R, but they are dead now. Really thinking of getting some r-comps. 265/35/18 R888s or 265/35/18 BFG R1s. Making 294whp / 290wtq on GST Mustang Dyno.
What can i do to go faster? Any sections of the track, where i can improve on? 2:09.47 is my fastest lap. This one is 2:09:54.
Constructive comments please. If you suggest a certain mod, state why it would help and how much difference it will make, even if it may be super obvious. Thanks guys and have a great weekend.
Last edited by Pure EvoIX; Apr 11, 2009 at 09:26 PM.
Hey. Its a bit difficult for me to give you good feedback on your line because if you remember ive only ran t-hil one weekend. For having done 7 track days, youre doing really well. Either way, based on what i can see, heres what i can tell you. Ill give you some general feedback first, then ill provide some input on a few turns:
- Your transition between shifting and grabbing the steering wheel as a bit abrupt. Give it some time, but you will eventually get smoother. You have to think about it though in order for you to work on it.
- Your grip on the steering wheel looks good, but it can be improved. Loosen up your grip a tad.
- Your braking inputs sound good, but youre a bit hesitant. With more practice and once youre more comfortable with the track that will change.
- Work on looking through the corner as opposed to looking at your entry. Its difficult to tell, but in a few sections im pretty sure youre looking right at your braking zone and then youre turning the steering wheel before you look. Think about it. Do you think you look before you turn the steering wheel? Im pretty sure you turn before you look.
T1: I see that track entry section is coned off. Are you not allowed to track out far right over that white line? If youre allowed, try tracking out as far right as you can before you turn in.
T2: I think youre turning in a bit too early. Your early entry is not allowing you to get on the gas until youre pretty much at the exit of T1. That also ruins your entry to T3 because youre forced to stay far right at entry to T3 when you should be mid track, or a bit left of mid track. So, try turning in a bit later at the entry to T2. That angle of entry will allow you to get on the gas earlier, which will force you to track out far right much sooner. That in return will allow you to setup a better entry to T3 because if you track out far right a bit earlier, that will give you space to then track out left enough which will give a better entry to T3.
T3. Given the preceding, your entry to T3 will give you the angle of entry which will put you in a position to get on the gas a bit earlier.
T8: Your entry into T8 looks uncomfortable. You almost jumped out of your seat, and you were too focused on what was in front of you as opposed to looking through the corner.
T10: Youre braking a bit early. I can hear it because it sounds like your pads engaged 3 times. When you apply the brakes your pads should engage once and the transition should be seamless.
T11: Your entry to T11 is a good example of what i was referring to when i said you should be looking through the corner and not at the corner. And it somewhat illustrates that youre turning your steering wheel before you look through the corner. You can see your glasses through your rear-view mirror. At entry to T11 your glasses are focused on whats directly in front of you (1:41). You should be looking through T11 and visualizing T12, T13 way before you turn. I cant see your eyes, but thats what i suspect is happening.
Obviously this is all easier said than done. It will take time, but by building the proper habits you will eventually retrain yourself so that you do all this naturally. I suspect you can eventually drop 2 seconds with your current setup if you work on those factors. But overall youre doing good.
- Your transition between shifting and grabbing the steering wheel as a bit abrupt. Give it some time, but you will eventually get smoother. You have to think about it though in order for you to work on it.
- Your grip on the steering wheel looks good, but it can be improved. Loosen up your grip a tad.
- Your braking inputs sound good, but youre a bit hesitant. With more practice and once youre more comfortable with the track that will change.
- Work on looking through the corner as opposed to looking at your entry. Its difficult to tell, but in a few sections im pretty sure youre looking right at your braking zone and then youre turning the steering wheel before you look. Think about it. Do you think you look before you turn the steering wheel? Im pretty sure you turn before you look.
T1: I see that track entry section is coned off. Are you not allowed to track out far right over that white line? If youre allowed, try tracking out as far right as you can before you turn in.
T2: I think youre turning in a bit too early. Your early entry is not allowing you to get on the gas until youre pretty much at the exit of T1. That also ruins your entry to T3 because youre forced to stay far right at entry to T3 when you should be mid track, or a bit left of mid track. So, try turning in a bit later at the entry to T2. That angle of entry will allow you to get on the gas earlier, which will force you to track out far right much sooner. That in return will allow you to setup a better entry to T3 because if you track out far right a bit earlier, that will give you space to then track out left enough which will give a better entry to T3.
T3. Given the preceding, your entry to T3 will give you the angle of entry which will put you in a position to get on the gas a bit earlier.
T8: Your entry into T8 looks uncomfortable. You almost jumped out of your seat, and you were too focused on what was in front of you as opposed to looking through the corner.
T10: Youre braking a bit early. I can hear it because it sounds like your pads engaged 3 times. When you apply the brakes your pads should engage once and the transition should be seamless.
T11: Your entry to T11 is a good example of what i was referring to when i said you should be looking through the corner and not at the corner. And it somewhat illustrates that youre turning your steering wheel before you look through the corner. You can see your glasses through your rear-view mirror. At entry to T11 your glasses are focused on whats directly in front of you (1:41). You should be looking through T11 and visualizing T12, T13 way before you turn. I cant see your eyes, but thats what i suspect is happening.
Obviously this is all easier said than done. It will take time, but by building the proper habits you will eventually retrain yourself so that you do all this naturally. I suspect you can eventually drop 2 seconds with your current setup if you work on those factors. But overall youre doing good.
I would recommend some more track days on streets but since you ready to buy some tires it might be the time to step up to R's.
Turn 1 you need to set it up much much more to the right.
Turn 2 you are turning in too soon.
Overall, use the track more
Last edited by GST Motorsports; Apr 12, 2009 at 01:03 AM.
Bueller,
Thanks for your time replying in such detail. I think you know me better than i do because i honestly thought i was pretty smooth, but not 100% smooth. I guess im not...need to keep working on that. You have very very sharp eyes and can catch little things that even I myself overlooked and I re-watched my vids at least 5 times. You got me on having a deathgrip on the steering wheel. In regards to looking through the corner, I agree. I have not yet mastered looking through the entire corner and as far as i can see. However, being 5' 6" on binary lowering brackets (-1.4") for the stock seat doesnt help either.
T1: Yes, you are allowed to go over. For some reason i feel like im a little late if i track out all the way to the right. Im a bit late on apex or miss it by a few feet if i go all the way to the right...i dno. I can't really see the exit from the far right. I look at the apex and once im on line with that, i look at the exit asap and continue my line towards it as best i can. Easier for me to see the exit sooner if im just in the middle of the white pit entrance line. I will force myself to move more to the right and take the line you suggest.
T2: Trying to break that habit, and i 100% agree with what you are describing. You just provided me a solution about carrying more speed exiting 2 and staying middle of track because im apexing later. You got me good here. Only reason i hug T2 is because it allegedly has slightly more grip there and easier to hold that line. I will try to remember this new line you suggest.
T3: I dont feel comfortable at the exit of T3, i want to take at a slightly wider arc. 2-3ft more to the left of where i was at and line up straight and then turn for 4. T3 entry is a bit sharp. So, I will try to be midtrack between T2 and T3.
T5: I use muscle memory to get over and as far right as i can. Honestly, honestly can't see the exit...being short FTL...fail
.
T8: I turned in slightly too soon, so i corrected slightly and waited, then turned, which was why i was moving in my seat a bit. T8 is stupid fast and scary. Need to focus on looking through the corner. When i went off T8, i wasnt looking through and got spooked because i was looking in front me...which was a hill....and it looked really really fast.
T10: The Raybestos ST-43 is hard to modulate than my Ferodo DS-2500. I mean, it feels like its either you are hard on brakes and if you let off 5lbs of pressure, then you wont get the same brake bite. When i heel-toe downshift, i let off some pressure, so the pressure on the brake pedal is not the same. I was working on that the whole day. Thats why you hear like 2 braking points. Once i finish the heel-toe, i push the brake down a bit more.
T11: Im short...lmao. I honestly cant see T12 after 5ft past the apex. So, i use muscle memory to get me through that turn. Thats why some turns you see me turning and then looking. So after i turn, i try to string and straighten T12-13 as best i can. Sometimes i turn too much. Need to work on pointing car so it goes over the apex of T13. Again, need to look through the turns better.
Again, Thanks Bueller for you fantastic insight. It means alot to me. You said i can pick up 2sec. If so, WOW!! I thought this was it, and couldn't go much faster than what i did, maybe a few tenths to 0.5sec. 2 secs is alot of time.
Mike,
What makes you say the R1R are horrible tires? Any reason? I do agree they wear pretty ****ty. down to 2.5mm after 1 track day from full tread for the front tires in the center. 37psi/36psi hot. Grip felt really good with full tread, but i feel they are losing their grip as they wear down. They are probably heat cycled to death already. I do have RE01R 255/40/17 I bought from Tirerack during that deal, im intending to put on. So its either i keep running street tires or get R-comps on 18s or 17s...i dno. Not to fond of spending $1800-2200 for race set of 18" rims/tires. Unfortunately, the street tires are my DD tires. So, if i track 3-4 times a year. They die pretty quick, most likely by the 5th track day with rotations.
What would you suggest for a great street tire thats not more than $900 for 255/40/17....*cough AD08*? Btw, I do read alot, alot, alot about tires. Im guessing the Nitto NT05 is the best bang for buck that replaces the Dunlop Z1 Star Specs, cheaper than the AD08 (more grip?). I do have my RE01R and my stock rims. So i guess that can be my DD rims/tires. I dunno.
How much faster would you say would i be faster with your recommended street tire?
Just some notes:
-I need to learn how to control/handle street tires better. Meaning, whenever i have open track, i just keep going 9.5-10/10ths. Need to learn when to back off after a hot lap to cool them down. So what im saying is, i need to learn about tire management and not to cook/overheat/overdrive them. Learn to back off and tell when they are get greasy. Then go at it again when it cools down and not go 100% all the time.
Thanks for your time replying in such detail. I think you know me better than i do because i honestly thought i was pretty smooth, but not 100% smooth. I guess im not...need to keep working on that. You have very very sharp eyes and can catch little things that even I myself overlooked and I re-watched my vids at least 5 times. You got me on having a deathgrip on the steering wheel. In regards to looking through the corner, I agree. I have not yet mastered looking through the entire corner and as far as i can see. However, being 5' 6" on binary lowering brackets (-1.4") for the stock seat doesnt help either.
T1: Yes, you are allowed to go over. For some reason i feel like im a little late if i track out all the way to the right. Im a bit late on apex or miss it by a few feet if i go all the way to the right...i dno. I can't really see the exit from the far right. I look at the apex and once im on line with that, i look at the exit asap and continue my line towards it as best i can. Easier for me to see the exit sooner if im just in the middle of the white pit entrance line. I will force myself to move more to the right and take the line you suggest.
T2: Trying to break that habit, and i 100% agree with what you are describing. You just provided me a solution about carrying more speed exiting 2 and staying middle of track because im apexing later. You got me good here.
Only reason i hug T2 is because it allegedly has slightly more grip there and easier to hold that line. I will try to remember this new line you suggest.T3: I dont feel comfortable at the exit of T3, i want to take at a slightly wider arc. 2-3ft more to the left of where i was at and line up straight and then turn for 4. T3 entry is a bit sharp. So, I will try to be midtrack between T2 and T3.
T5: I use muscle memory to get over and as far right as i can. Honestly, honestly can't see the exit...being short FTL...fail
.T8: I turned in slightly too soon, so i corrected slightly and waited, then turned, which was why i was moving in my seat a bit. T8 is stupid fast and scary. Need to focus on looking through the corner. When i went off T8, i wasnt looking through and got spooked because i was looking in front me...which was a hill....and it looked really really fast.
T10: The Raybestos ST-43 is hard to modulate than my Ferodo DS-2500. I mean, it feels like its either you are hard on brakes and if you let off 5lbs of pressure, then you wont get the same brake bite. When i heel-toe downshift, i let off some pressure, so the pressure on the brake pedal is not the same. I was working on that the whole day. Thats why you hear like 2 braking points. Once i finish the heel-toe, i push the brake down a bit more.
T11: Im short...lmao. I honestly cant see T12 after 5ft past the apex. So, i use muscle memory to get me through that turn. Thats why some turns you see me turning and then looking. So after i turn, i try to string and straighten T12-13 as best i can. Sometimes i turn too much. Need to work on pointing car so it goes over the apex of T13. Again, need to look through the turns better.
Again, Thanks Bueller for you fantastic insight. It means alot to me. You said i can pick up 2sec. If so, WOW!! I thought this was it, and couldn't go much faster than what i did, maybe a few tenths to 0.5sec. 2 secs is alot of time.
Mike,
What makes you say the R1R are horrible tires? Any reason? I do agree they wear pretty ****ty. down to 2.5mm after 1 track day from full tread for the front tires in the center. 37psi/36psi hot. Grip felt really good with full tread, but i feel they are losing their grip as they wear down. They are probably heat cycled to death already. I do have RE01R 255/40/17 I bought from Tirerack during that deal, im intending to put on. So its either i keep running street tires or get R-comps on 18s or 17s...i dno. Not to fond of spending $1800-2200 for race set of 18" rims/tires. Unfortunately, the street tires are my DD tires. So, if i track 3-4 times a year. They die pretty quick, most likely by the 5th track day with rotations.
What would you suggest for a great street tire thats not more than $900 for 255/40/17....*cough AD08*
? Btw, I do read alot, alot, alot about tires. Im guessing the Nitto NT05 is the best bang for buck that replaces the Dunlop Z1 Star Specs, cheaper than the AD08 (more grip?). I do have my RE01R and my stock rims. So i guess that can be my DD rims/tires. I dunno.How much faster would you say would i be faster with your recommended street tire?
Just some notes:
-I need to learn how to control/handle street tires better. Meaning, whenever i have open track, i just keep going 9.5-10/10ths. Need to learn when to back off after a hot lap to cool them down. So what im saying is, i need to learn about tire management and not to cook/overheat/overdrive them. Learn to back off and tell when they are get greasy. Then go at it again when it cools down and not go 100% all the time.
Last edited by Pure EvoIX; Apr 12, 2009 at 01:50 AM.
Youre doing just fine. 
Its all about building good habits. Here is something else for you to think about:
- Do you dedicate any sessions to just working on specific routines, or corners, or situations? If not, think about how you can better use your sessions to your advantage as opposed to just working on getting fast laps. My track friends that know me best know me for things like that. I may start off really slow, but at some point i will lay down a really fast time. Reason is because im working more on improving me as opposed to working on laying down fast laps. The speed will come. You just have to learn to be patient.
- What do you do on your warmup lap? Here is a suggestion. Drive as slow as possible on your warmup lap, but obviously do it safely. And observe the entire track. Try to memorize the track turn by turn. Memorize the station workers and where they are. Try to memorize what they look like. Try to memorize the runoff. By doing that you will in time memorize the track to a point where you can close your eyes and see most, if not the entire track as it is that day. What will that help you with? For one thing, next time youre approaching T11, you can look through it way before you turn and you will be able to visualize that transition through T12-13. Thats how you learn to look through and visualize a corner. So no matter how short you think you are, youll see it before you actually get there.
Trust me, i by no means am good at all this. I work on it constantly. But you will gradually get the hang of it. When that happens you will see things in a totally different perspective.
Its all about building good habits. Here is something else for you to think about: - Do you dedicate any sessions to just working on specific routines, or corners, or situations? If not, think about how you can better use your sessions to your advantage as opposed to just working on getting fast laps. My track friends that know me best know me for things like that. I may start off really slow, but at some point i will lay down a really fast time. Reason is because im working more on improving me as opposed to working on laying down fast laps. The speed will come. You just have to learn to be patient.
- What do you do on your warmup lap? Here is a suggestion. Drive as slow as possible on your warmup lap, but obviously do it safely. And observe the entire track. Try to memorize the track turn by turn. Memorize the station workers and where they are. Try to memorize what they look like. Try to memorize the runoff. By doing that you will in time memorize the track to a point where you can close your eyes and see most, if not the entire track as it is that day. What will that help you with? For one thing, next time youre approaching T11, you can look through it way before you turn and you will be able to visualize that transition through T12-13. Thats how you learn to look through and visualize a corner. So no matter how short you think you are, youll see it before you actually get there.
Trust me, i by no means am good at all this. I work on it constantly. But you will gradually get the hang of it. When that happens you will see things in a totally different perspective.
I am humbled. Thanks for the suggestions. I do take the first lap at 7/10 to warm up tires, heat up my race pads, and try to observe the track conditions (dirt, cones, markings on road, waving to station workers). Next time I go out, I'll make it a habit to take the first 2 laps to memorize the layout and practice using full width of track everywhere at 6/10ths.
Usually, before every track day, I will tell myself to work on certain things for the day based on footage from the last track day. But, i don't give myself different things to work on for every session. Next time, I'll make a whole list of things to work on and split it among the 5-6 sessions. Then, the last 2 sessions, ill try to string them all together, then slowly build up the speed.
While driving, I make mental notes of when and where im braking and changing gears and accelerating and try to make necessary adjustments for the next lap. I will also make sure there is someone slower in front of me and far enough from me, so i can slow myself down and work on the list i made earlier for the session.
I 100% get what you are telling me and will focus on the basics like: 1) being smooth with steering, gas, brakes, gear change ; 2) use whole width of track ; 3) look through the turns ; 4) Pay more attention to every turns runoff area (rarely do, honestly). Good safety measure.
Need to change my focus away from lap times, make it the least important and the last thing on the to do list. Time to step back a few steps and re-evaluate situation. I am not in a competition, so lap times doesn't matter. Okay...its going to be engraved in my brain from now on. I'll bring a notepad and write things down after i pit in of things that still needs work. I'll develop some sort of procedure and routine every time i go to the track. This should definitely help me put things in new perspective, improve driver, and to stay focus.
Edit: No one addressed the tire issue. RE01R - 255/40/17 for track/DD (already have BNIB havent mounted) or Dedicated R-Comp (R888, R1 on 265/35/18 or 255/40/17?) Advice? I track 3-4 a year, probably 1-2 more for this year.
Usually, before every track day, I will tell myself to work on certain things for the day based on footage from the last track day. But, i don't give myself different things to work on for every session. Next time, I'll make a whole list of things to work on and split it among the 5-6 sessions. Then, the last 2 sessions, ill try to string them all together, then slowly build up the speed.
While driving, I make mental notes of when and where im braking and changing gears and accelerating and try to make necessary adjustments for the next lap. I will also make sure there is someone slower in front of me and far enough from me, so i can slow myself down and work on the list i made earlier for the session.
I 100% get what you are telling me and will focus on the basics like: 1) being smooth with steering, gas, brakes, gear change ; 2) use whole width of track ; 3) look through the turns ; 4) Pay more attention to every turns runoff area (rarely do, honestly). Good safety measure.
Need to change my focus away from lap times, make it the least important and the last thing on the to do list. Time to step back a few steps and re-evaluate situation. I am not in a competition, so lap times doesn't matter. Okay...its going to be engraved in my brain from now on. I'll bring a notepad and write things down after i pit in of things that still needs work. I'll develop some sort of procedure and routine every time i go to the track. This should definitely help me put things in new perspective, improve driver, and to stay focus.
Edit: No one addressed the tire issue. RE01R - 255/40/17 for track/DD (already have BNIB havent mounted) or Dedicated R-Comp (R888, R1 on 265/35/18 or 255/40/17?) Advice? I track 3-4 a year, probably 1-2 more for this year.
Last edited by Pure EvoIX; Apr 12, 2009 at 03:08 PM.
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Hey everyone!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Xqs...eature=channel
Here is another lap at Thill! This time was a little slower. 2:10.096. Bueller thanks for your help in regards to some of the turns. T1, i tracked as far right as i felt comfortable and felt much better. I still think there is another 5mph in there somewhere. I tried a double apex for T2. Did a much better job looking through the turns before turning, but still working on some turns.
This time I was running 245/45/17 NT01s. Almost new, probably used for half a day when i got them. Acceleration felt noticable a tad slower compared to the smaller diam 255/40/17 R1R. But the gearing did help on many of the turns. it honestly felt comparable to the R1R in terms of grip. Running -2.8 camber. Stiffen up the dampers a few more clicks harder too. Also had a Schroth 4pt ASM harness + 4pt rollbar in the back. Weather was pretty damn hot though. 90F-95F. 100F+ track surface.
Tell me what you think. Trying to get 2:07s is proving to be very very difficult...lol. 4-5 track days im basically stuck between 2:09.5 - 2:11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Xqs...eature=channel
Here is another lap at Thill! This time was a little slower.
2:10.096. Bueller thanks for your help in regards to some of the turns. T1, i tracked as far right as i felt comfortable and felt much better. I still think there is another 5mph in there somewhere. I tried a double apex for T2. Did a much better job looking through the turns before turning, but still working on some turns.This time I was running 245/45/17 NT01s. Almost new, probably used for half a day when i got them. Acceleration felt noticable a tad slower compared to the smaller diam 255/40/17 R1R. But the gearing did help on many of the turns. it honestly felt comparable to the R1R in terms of grip. Running -2.8 camber. Stiffen up the dampers a few more clicks harder too. Also had a Schroth 4pt ASM harness + 4pt rollbar in the back. Weather was pretty damn hot though. 90F-95F. 100F+ track surface.
Tell me what you think. Trying to get 2:07s is proving to be very very difficult...lol. 4-5 track days im basically stuck between 2:09.5 - 2:11.
Last edited by Pure EvoIX; Jul 18, 2009 at 03:02 PM.
Hope to see you there WM! BTW, you got PM WM
-Will
Last edited by willitas34; Jul 18, 2009 at 09:02 PM.
Hey everyone!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Xqs...eature=channel
Here is another lap at Thill! This time was a little slower. 2:10.096. Bueller thanks for your help in regards to some of the turns. T1, i tracked as far right as i felt comfortable and felt much better. I still think there is another 5mph in there somewhere. I tried a double apex for T2. Did a much better job looking through the turns before turning, but still working on some turns.
This time I was running 245/45/17 NT01s. Almost new, probably used for half a day when i got them. Acceleration felt noticable a tad slower compared to the smaller diam 255/40/17 R1R. But the gearing did help on many of the turns. it honestly felt comparable to the R1R in terms of grip. Running -2.8 camber. Stiffen up the dampers a few more clicks harder too. Also had a Schroth 4pt ASM harness + 4pt rollbar in the back. Weather was pretty damn hot though. 90F-95F. 100F+ track surface.
Tell me what you think. Trying to get 2:07s is proving to be very very difficult...lol. 4-5 track days im basically stuck between 2:09.5 - 2:11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Xqs...eature=channel
Here is another lap at Thill! This time was a little slower.
2:10.096. Bueller thanks for your help in regards to some of the turns. T1, i tracked as far right as i felt comfortable and felt much better. I still think there is another 5mph in there somewhere. I tried a double apex for T2. Did a much better job looking through the turns before turning, but still working on some turns.This time I was running 245/45/17 NT01s. Almost new, probably used for half a day when i got them. Acceleration felt noticable a tad slower compared to the smaller diam 255/40/17 R1R. But the gearing did help on many of the turns. it honestly felt comparable to the R1R in terms of grip. Running -2.8 camber. Stiffen up the dampers a few more clicks harder too. Also had a Schroth 4pt ASM harness + 4pt rollbar in the back. Weather was pretty damn hot though. 90F-95F. 100F+ track surface.
Tell me what you think. Trying to get 2:07s is proving to be very very difficult...lol. 4-5 track days im basically stuck between 2:09.5 - 2:11.