To Wing or Not to Wing....
To Wing or Not to Wing....
Hey guys,
So over the years I have seen a great mix of Evos competing in Autocross both with and without rear wings.
Which do you run and why? Is there really a benefit from the wing as far as downforce at speeds <70mph... Is the wingless simply just for weight reduction?
In your opinion which is the most functional and beneficial...
To Wing or Not to Wing
So over the years I have seen a great mix of Evos competing in Autocross both with and without rear wings.
Which do you run and why? Is there really a benefit from the wing as far as downforce at speeds <70mph... Is the wingless simply just for weight reduction?
In your opinion which is the most functional and beneficial...
To Wing or Not to Wing
im sure this has been discussed before in other threads/topics but i like it. personally i went wingless (well im an RS and came wingless) but got a CF trunk instead of buying a wing, mostly because i think the rs is all about weight reduction ..haha that and im not going to be rallying anytime soon, don't go to tracks and generally dont hit such high speeds where the wing stars becoming funtional...its all about how you drive your evo and i like the look of a wingless evo better IMO 
A wing set up for autocross will make downforce you can feel at 40-45 mph or so. It's only a benefit if you can set up the car around it though. Just adding a wing isn't going to make the car any faster.
A wing will generate downforce at any speed. Whether or not it will produce useable downforce is dependent totally on how your wing is setup.
As an example... the wing of a cessna will happily provide enough lift to keep the plane aloft at very low speeds (30-40 mph in some cases), but this wing will become very inefficient at higher airspeeds (though on a plane thats largely due to structure). Compare that to an F-18 wing, and a slow speed for that plane is in the 100-120 range.
On a car its similar. If your wing is designed to create lots of downforce with relatively slow speeds (high angle of attatck), it will produce lots of drag at higher speeds. If your wing has a very low angle of attack (though on a car its different than angle of attack really, but stick with me) then it will generate much less lift at lower speeds, but also much less drag. Am I making sense...
So for autox, you would need to set the wing up for the specific course (tight or fast) and decide if you're benefiting from the added downforce but increased weight or vice verce.
As an example... the wing of a cessna will happily provide enough lift to keep the plane aloft at very low speeds (30-40 mph in some cases), but this wing will become very inefficient at higher airspeeds (though on a plane thats largely due to structure). Compare that to an F-18 wing, and a slow speed for that plane is in the 100-120 range.
On a car its similar. If your wing is designed to create lots of downforce with relatively slow speeds (high angle of attatck), it will produce lots of drag at higher speeds. If your wing has a very low angle of attack (though on a car its different than angle of attack really, but stick with me) then it will generate much less lift at lower speeds, but also much less drag. Am I making sense...
So for autox, you would need to set the wing up for the specific course (tight or fast) and decide if you're benefiting from the added downforce but increased weight or vice verce.
A wing will generate downforce at any speed. Whether or not it will produce useable downforce is dependent totally on how your wing is setup.
As an example... the wing of a cessna will happily provide enough lift to keep the plane aloft at very low speeds (30-40 mph in some cases), but this wing will become very inefficient at higher airspeeds (though on a plane thats largely due to structure). Compare that to an F-18 wing, and a slow speed for that plane is in the 100-120 range.
On a car its similar. If your wing is designed to create lots of downforce with relatively slow speeds (high angle of attatck), it will produce lots of drag at higher speeds. If your wing has a very low angle of attack (though on a car its different than angle of attack really, but stick with me) then it will generate much less lift at lower speeds, but also much less drag. Am I making sense...
So for autox, you would need to set the wing up for the specific course (tight or fast) and decide if you're benefiting from the added downforce but increased weight or vice verce.
As an example... the wing of a cessna will happily provide enough lift to keep the plane aloft at very low speeds (30-40 mph in some cases), but this wing will become very inefficient at higher airspeeds (though on a plane thats largely due to structure). Compare that to an F-18 wing, and a slow speed for that plane is in the 100-120 range.
On a car its similar. If your wing is designed to create lots of downforce with relatively slow speeds (high angle of attatck), it will produce lots of drag at higher speeds. If your wing has a very low angle of attack (though on a car its different than angle of attack really, but stick with me) then it will generate much less lift at lower speeds, but also much less drag. Am I making sense...
So for autox, you would need to set the wing up for the specific course (tight or fast) and decide if you're benefiting from the added downforce but increased weight or vice verce.
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A wing will generate downforce at any speed. Whether or not it will produce useable downforce is dependent totally on how your wing is setup.
As an example... the wing of a cessna will happily provide enough lift to keep the plane aloft at very low speeds (30-40 mph in some cases), but this wing will become very inefficient at higher airspeeds (though on a plane thats largely due to structure). Compare that to an F-18 wing, and a slow speed for that plane is in the 100-120 range.
On a car its similar. If your wing is designed to create lots of downforce with relatively slow speeds (high angle of attatck), it will produce lots of drag at higher speeds. If your wing has a very low angle of attack (though on a car its different than angle of attack really, but stick with me) then it will generate much less lift at lower speeds, but also much less drag. Am I making sense...
So for autox, you would need to set the wing up for the specific course (tight or fast) and decide if you're benefiting from the added downforce but increased weight or vice verce.
As an example... the wing of a cessna will happily provide enough lift to keep the plane aloft at very low speeds (30-40 mph in some cases), but this wing will become very inefficient at higher airspeeds (though on a plane thats largely due to structure). Compare that to an F-18 wing, and a slow speed for that plane is in the 100-120 range.
On a car its similar. If your wing is designed to create lots of downforce with relatively slow speeds (high angle of attatck), it will produce lots of drag at higher speeds. If your wing has a very low angle of attack (though on a car its different than angle of attack really, but stick with me) then it will generate much less lift at lower speeds, but also much less drag. Am I making sense...
So for autox, you would need to set the wing up for the specific course (tight or fast) and decide if you're benefiting from the added downforce but increased weight or vice verce.
i have a different opinion on some of the point here, but this is not a flight lesson , right?(like this: "A wing will generate downforce at any speed"; since you are a pilot, i am sure you aware of the definition of "stall") So let it be as it is , and stay on topic. Other wise , it is a nice explanation.
Wings are nice addition, if you do not have other segment on the car to improve for autoX or drag. For me it would be the very last thing to think about it, if i would be doing those type of races. WHy?
Wings are awesome, if you got them right for the course - and for your set up, and the weather , right?
Other wise you just dragging a plate behind you , and if you unlucky you can even create lift... LOL Some wings are funny, specially those which are made without wind tunnel testing....
Now how many racers i did see in the past in the states, adjusting they wings, never mind for those criteria's on the track or before to make it efficient for the race day ? None..
Lets face it, most guys using a general set up /nothing wrong with that/, if they even go there. Most of them just put it on couple changes or ideas they pick the install day, about of the angle of attack, i am not even sure they actually think through the effects variables at different speed and air density etc...
SO imho this is a base line above, where we start talking about a wing as a necessary part on the autoX or drag car. I am sure there is some guys going crazy about aero and some even doing it right, but i bet the aero is not the one which makes a big impact on they course times at auto X or drag.
So from there as i said the least thing i would worry in autoX or drag is the wing. Maybe diffusers or blocking- shielding the a front, if is a must working on the aero.
I would spend the wing budget on some suspension - drive train etc. or tire - brake upgrades before i would even look into the wing story.
Last edited by Robevo RS; Sep 10, 2011 at 11:44 AM.
Hey guys,
So over the years I have seen a great mix of Evos competing in Autocross both with and without rear wings.
Which do you run and why? Is there really a benefit from the wing as far as downforce at speeds <70mph... Is the wingless simply just for weight reduction?
In your opinion which is the most functional and beneficial...
To Wing or Not to Wing
So over the years I have seen a great mix of Evos competing in Autocross both with and without rear wings.
Which do you run and why? Is there really a benefit from the wing as far as downforce at speeds <70mph... Is the wingless simply just for weight reduction?
In your opinion which is the most functional and beneficial...
To Wing or Not to Wing
I mean some examples:
-weight
-tires
-brakes
-suspension
-drive train
-etc?
If you answer these , i think we can agree much easier on your question in your case.
Since at the very last , the wing is yes functional , if you got a right wing for your needs. But the question is , there is maybe other point in your car where you can spend the wing money , and you will see a lot more improvement then a wing would do for you.
I always try to build something with a most benefits i can get from my money. Its like yes a WRC wing or CF rear doors -trunk and so would be def. better for me- the car.
But there is many places where that money can go and will make the car much more fun and more successful for a same amount of money.
Rob
i have a different opinion on some of the point here, but this is not a flight lesson , right?(like this: "A wing will generate downforce at any speed"; since you are a pilot, i am sure you aware of the definition of "stall") So let it be as it is , and stay on topic. Other wise , it is a nice explanation.
Wings are nice addition, if you do not have other segment on the car to improve for autoX or drag. For me it would be the very last thing to think about it, if i would be doing those type of races. WHy?
Wings are awesome, if you got them right for the course - and for your set up, and the weather , right?
Other wise you just dragging a plate behind you , and if you unlucky you can even create lift... LOL Some wings are funny, specially those which are made without wind tunnel testing....
Now how many racers i did see in the past in the states, adjusting they wings, never mind for those criteria's on the track or before to make it efficient for the race day ? None..
Lets face it, most guys using a general set up /nothing wrong with that/, if they even go there. Most of them just put it on couple changes or ideas they pick the install day, about of the angle of attack, i am not even sure they actually think through the effects variables at different speed and air density etc...
SO imho this is a base line above, where we start talking about a wing as a necessary part on the autoX or drag car. I am sure there is some guys going crazy about aero and some even doing it right, but i bet the aero is not the one which makes a big impact on they course times at auto X or drag.
So from there as i said the least thing i would worry in autoX or drag is the wing. Maybe diffusers or blocking- shielding the a front, if is a must working on the aero.
I would spend the wing budget on some suspension - drive train etc. or tire - brake upgrades before i would even look into the wing story.
Wings are nice addition, if you do not have other segment on the car to improve for autoX or drag. For me it would be the very last thing to think about it, if i would be doing those type of races. WHy?
Wings are awesome, if you got them right for the course - and for your set up, and the weather , right?
Other wise you just dragging a plate behind you , and if you unlucky you can even create lift... LOL Some wings are funny, specially those which are made without wind tunnel testing....
Now how many racers i did see in the past in the states, adjusting they wings, never mind for those criteria's on the track or before to make it efficient for the race day ? None..
Lets face it, most guys using a general set up /nothing wrong with that/, if they even go there. Most of them just put it on couple changes or ideas they pick the install day, about of the angle of attack, i am not even sure they actually think through the effects variables at different speed and air density etc...
SO imho this is a base line above, where we start talking about a wing as a necessary part on the autoX or drag car. I am sure there is some guys going crazy about aero and some even doing it right, but i bet the aero is not the one which makes a big impact on they course times at auto X or drag.
So from there as i said the least thing i would worry in autoX or drag is the wing. Maybe diffusers or blocking- shielding the a front, if is a must working on the aero.
I would spend the wing budget on some suspension - drive train etc. or tire - brake upgrades before i would even look into the wing story.
Anyone with a wing on their car should definitely be aware of where the wings sweet spots are, though I'm not sure how they'd do this short of taping some yarn strips onto it to see at which speeds things are doing what. I'll actually do this with my wing the next time I hit the track (which I think will be next year)... but I don't have another wing to compare it to...
As for how much downforce the stock wing produces, I have no idea... primarily because I don't believe Mitsubishi has released that information... I CAN tell you that the vortex generator on the Evo IX MR is responsible for reducing the coefficient of drag AND lift (bad lift) by .006. (The article is entitled "Research on Aerodynamic Drag Reduction by Vortex Generators" if anyone is interested in finding it)...