Sean,

Our events are already DE's. However, just naming a time trial series a DE wouldn't do the trick I don't think .

If only it would, I'd start a therapeutic demolition derby series called "Bitterman's Road-Rage and Drunk Driving Demolition Derby Outlet for Road-Rage Sickened People Who Like to Drive Drunk On Tracks So They Won't Get Busted By The Cops Competitive Fender-to-Fender Championship Series and Driver Education". Full insurance coverage from your provider.

Wouldn't that be awesome!!!

Re. the boost monitoring thing. Obviously that would be best, but it also seems like cheating would be easy. We really have to rely on the honor system here for the time being. Then, later, when things really get fun, we can come up with tech'ing procedures, etc.

Assuming we're going with the honor system for now, do you think everyone will know what their boost parameters are? If so, we can have everyone report their boost curve and use that. Maybe that would be easy? I guess that's easier than having them report their hp since they wouldn't need a dyno.

Does everyone who does power mods tend to get boost guages installed and do they have guages that show max boost during the course of a day or something? If so, then people would at least know what boost they're putting out. I could see someone like me, who just puts on an exhaust or something, not knowing.

 

aaron - aren't you desort tortuis on the S2000 board?

anyway.... yes, Nasa had HPDE's at the events, but with lots of people begging for time trials they expected a big turnout...instead they got 10 cars....whopeee... ahahah

I am pretty sure that most insurance consider a time trial a timed event and that would void most people's coverage.... that is "most".... you got away with it I guess, so that is good for you....

I am just letting people know so if they do get into that situation they aren't surprised.

i have a full racing S2000 now that has rollcage, etc...... so I am not concerned about it since the car itself doesn't even have a title..... but for the new Evo guy who thinks he knows how to drive and doesn't it would suck to find out he sucks at driving and has to pay for the damage too.

Scot

 

to detemine if your vedicle is covered by your policy, you need to check your insruance policy terms. i called Geico and asked them. wasn't really much help though. they did say a vehicle isn't covered if its on a racing course. I'm going to have the policy reviewed by my attorney. at the end of the day, its the contract which states the coverage terms.

So if Geico doesn't work out, i'll need to find a different carrier.

Aaron, what company are you using?

Sean

 

I'm using farmer's. The point I'm making about our *events* is that not everyone is competing. We have DE. But, I agree, if you are time trialing/competing then I don't think any insurance carrier would cover you. But if you're timing it doesn't necessarily mean your competing... that was the point I was trying to make. It probably comes down to individual adjusters, etc. The transcript from my discussion with the insurance carrier shows that they could ask who knows what sort of questions and never ask the important ones. I think it's a black box at this point in time. They may never ask about timing, or competition, etc., etc.

-desert tortoise

 

Based on a steep learning curve re. the EVO and turbo's in general I've realized there's no way to classify this car without using the honor system and keep costs down while enabling people to be competitive.

So, that brings me back to the honor system once again. However, I thought that, assuming we go with the honor system, we might as well not worry about what mods people do for power since they're too variable. Instead let's have people report their estimated crank hp and start from there. So, I thought that STOCK should allow only up to 300hp, and MODIFIED should allow only up to 330 (the European EVO hp level). Using this, perhaps ridiculous, logic here's another proposed classing system:

DSM 300
No EVO cars allowed
(all BASELINE modifications allowed, + 50 pts from POINTS LIST)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = listed showroom weight +100lbs.
max crank hp = 300

E-STOCK 300
(all BASELINE modifications allowed, + 50 pts from POINTS LIST for EVO's; 70 points for non-EVO DSM's)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = listed showroom weight +100lbs.
max crank hp = 300

MOD 330
(all BASELINE mods + 160 points from POINTS LIST for EVO's, 200 points for non-EVO's)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = listed showroom weight +100lbs.
max crank hp = 330

UNLIMITED
Totally open, but car must have started its life as a Mitsubishi.


BASELINE MODS
DOT Street Tires: up to 245 width tires, 100+ treadwear
Any wheels
Alignment – any setting obtainable without suspension mod
Any brake pad
Any modification to stock rotor
Any brake fluid
Brake ducting allowed
Brake dust shields can be removed
Brakelines
Any air filter (stock air box required)
Any fluids
Any plugs
Strut-tower brace
Rear brace
Thermostat
Heat shield
x-brace
clutch


MODIFICATION POINTS LIST:

Non-DOT tires (slicks) 75
DOT (R-Compound) Tires 50
Coilovers (shocks & springs) 50
Brakes 25
front end AERO (including undertray) 20
rear end AERO (including undertray) 20
shocks (with unmodified stock springs) 20
springs (with stock shocks/stock valving) 15
rear sway bar 15
Camber plates 10
front sway bar 10

Rollbar or cage –15

 

Aaron,

As much as having a hole for potential "cheaters" to go through, I think this is a good way to class the cars especially due to the difficulty of teching each car for power mods to begin with. Plus the nature of these events are for fun, so it'd be a drag if SV days end up being proceeded by an hour of tech inspection.

I started adding some of the points up for the mod class and noticed that it allows for a lot of mods outside of power. For example, an EVO can show up with the following setup and still be in Mod and have 10 points to go:

Full Coilover Setup with Camber Plates (i.e. RRE JICs) - 60
Slicks on custom wheels - 75
Rear Sway Bar - 15
Buschur Stage III power package

I guess I'm not really opposed to it as it'll allow for a wide range of cars (like mine) to show up in mod. But I think the times in the Mod class will start to get very very fast. Maybe this is what you intended.

Do you think having the so called "stock" class get another 15 or 20 points allowance would pull a wider range of competitors? I'm just thinking of the guys who have a mostly stock street car (i.e. ECU flash + catback) + a nice aftermarket suspension setup like the coilovers + rear sway. In your current system, their HP would put them in stock but their basic suspension would put them in Mod which they'll probably be off pace by up to 10 seconds.

Just a thought. Maybe this will allow the hard core "must stay stock" car guys to also be able to get a set of rims and run slicks to make up for the lack of suspension or power upgrades in "stock".

Anyway, great work!

Derek

P.S. What about bushings? Will changing a few suspension bushings put the car in UNLIMITED? Front end aero is worth more than a rear sway bar?

 

Yeah, I think he heard I was trying to get to mod by using street tires ;-)...so the aero stuff got added...I do have a stock nose tho'...and FWIW I think the HP "stop" pionts are really to close to really seperate the mod classes...JMHO...Keep us honest Aaron
EVO4FUN Banished to UNLIMITED HELL (or is it HEAVEN?).. I guess I got inside more peoples heads than just Wayns at the first event...Anyone else got game (Works...Vishnu?) or do I just get to play with the Viper/Vette/and S2K guys??

 

err.. was there ever a question that you were going to be in Unlimited? I think it's safe to say that a car with every mod available that money can buy can be considered unlimited. LOL

I don't think your front splitter is worth more than the rear sway bar... or something else worth 20 points like shocks (Moton, JRZ to go to the extreme).

 

Oh and regarding the HP gap. 330 crank HP really isn't that much for a modded EVO. Guys with Stage III and Stage IV cars are really the ones that'll be hurting when Robi and others start strapping on turbo upgrades and getting 525+ crank hp with race gas and slicks....

Then again, those guys will be the first to file bankruptcy...

 

Derek,

Well, yes, now that we've dealt with the power issue, we have to deal with the other problems.

It would be best if we didn't allow slicks in MOD. The problem is everyone now believes (perhaps accurately) that slicks are CHEAPER to run than DOT-R's due to the take-off market. Of course if we let people run slicks then *everyone* needs to buy 18 inch wheels and stock up on takeoffs to be competitive (limited seasonal availability). I'm not sure what to do about the tire issue.

Suspension: I envision the STOCK class as a catch-all for beginning drivers, so we don't want you, me, Wayne, Matt, etc. in it. MOD should sort of be the "spec" class for the experienced drivers where costs are controlled but cars are set up well for the track. UNLIMITED is for rich people who don't know how to drive (yes this is a taunt Robbie, YOU didn't get into anyone's head, your CAR did ). Forgetting the points thing, I think the best system would be the following:

STOCK:
rear sway, any mod to increase front camber, shocks OR springs, wheels
street tires
300hp
(any B.S. mod that's just for show could be evaluated as to whether to allow it, just in case someone shows up with a bling bling body kit that doesn't do anything really and we don't want to exclude them. This is also the bling bling class afterall).

MOD:
coilovers, front/rear sway, camber plates, limited bushings, wheels
DOT-R (limited to RA-1, certain Kumho's, A032R, Michelin Cups, Hankook, and other affordable or not faster tires)
330hp
(no slicks, no aero)

Personally, I support this classing, as would everyone I think (except Robbie who, yes Derek, did think he was going to weasle his way into MOD!!!) if people weren't so gung ho on running slicks because they're supposedly cheaper.

In fact, thinking about it, I'm game for this despite the added cost of DOT-R's over take-off's. I'm not even sure there's a really good, constant supply of these so-called "take-offs" everyone's ranting and raving about - in the limited sizes we need anyway - so it might be dumb to structure our classing around them. Additionally, they may not be that much cheaper to run when you consider the added brake pad/rotor costs and perhaps other mechanical and wear issues associated with monster grip. We know we can get RA-1s. We also know RA-1's are somewhat affordable and hopefully the Hankooks will be made in our sizes so we can buy them instead since they're cheaper. No Hoosiers, or any tire that has a high life-cycle cost (unless its not faster, in which case, be our guest) should be allowed.

This system would eliminate points altogether. The purpose of the points was to enable a wide variety of cars, with various mods, to participate. Most of these mods are power related, and we've dealt with that issue.

Eh?

 

You want to see mods? wait till you see the SCC evotuner shoot-out some of those cars had 20k invested! Mine would have been the "stocker". I've got 4K in power mods 2K in suspension and 2k in bling nose/(oops don't have that any more)wheels/rotors etc... and 3.5K was paid for by a nice semi truck who lost a tread and wiped the nose off my car (at 2200 miles was I pissed!) So Aaron do I have to take out the engine and push to qualify for mod??? (and I think I did ok driving for never having seen the track before) I know I know only the guilty run when no ones chasing...I don't care if it's the car or the driver...I'm still in peoples heads and (will try to stay there) and I won alot of Bicycle road races/TT's/Criteriums doing just that. rrr

 

Robbie,

You can push if you think you can generate 330hp. Lance Armstrong only puts out 400 watts (0.54hp) so I don't think you've got much of a chance, despite your biking history. (BTW, I'm not even a road biker and I'm glad I wasn't racing against you back in the day, so I guess your system works! GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!).

I'm not teasing you because of your driving, I'm teasing you because of your talking, which seems to be one of your primary strategic advantages. Obviously you know how to drive, but if you want to compete in MOD you either have to agree to buy us all the mods you have or take some of your mods off! I'm not even sure if I'm going to get to 330hp. I'll probably start off with 271 against everyone, perhaps even run that the whole season. So, you'll have 60hp on me as it is, so you don't need to worry about one competitor at least .

 

As far as tires go in MOD, I'd say we should just specifically ban Hoosiers since they're so much faster and expensive.

As far as allowable width goes, I'd say we should limit it to 245 since that's the biggest we can fit without rolling fenders, etc.

Any thoughts??

 

follow the link I'm putting up the $100.00 I won for the fastest EVO at T-hill (we had 27 I think)...to the owner/driver of the fastest EVO at Buttonwillow... Let's get Slideways and have some EVO fun...
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...threadid=65665

 

This is a great idea. I'm in Florida and would love to try this event at Sebring. Is that April Date firm? Please let me know as well as an estimated schedule of events for the weekend.

BUMP