Methanol/water in SCCA and NASA
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: WA Seattle toolanddyedesigns.com
Well I got an email back from NW NASA and their ruling states that over 50% alcohol content needs to be in an FIA approved fuel cell. Less than 50% alcohol can be in a regular plastic tank and needs to be in an area that is seperated by a firewall or bulkhead from the driver.
SCCA hasn't returned by emails yet.
SCCA hasn't returned by emails yet.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: WA Seattle toolanddyedesigns.com
Not really concerned with class, as I'm not doing it to be competitive, just for fun. So really, any class. Not really auto-x, but track days so I guess with SCCA that would be time trials?
From the 2013 NASA discussion thread:
Personally, I think using any type of injection is unneccessary. Especially when you're not trying to be competitive, and it doesn't help you as NASA has rules on power:weight. It's one less thing to worry about at the track if you don't use it.
11.4.22 Alcohol Injection
Tanks containing alcohol (e.g. methanol) that exceed 50% alcohol by volume must carry an FIA FT3 (or higher) rating and be installed per fuel cell regulations found in CCR Section [Ref(15.4)]. Tanks containing 50% or less alcohol by volume may use any container per the manufacturer’s instructions or recommendations. Under all
circumstances tanks or containers must be mounted in an area that is separated from the driver by a bulkhead or firewall.
18.5 Permitted Fuel
Permitted fuel is any grade of commercially available unmodified gasoline, E85 Ethanol, biodiesel, or diesel. The driver must notify the Race Director if using methanol or other exotic fuel, when class rules permit. Vehicles that run on (all or in part) electricity, propane, or hydrogen must be cleared through the National Office in writing.
Two things here. 1 no sane person should rely on ANY kind of secondary pump or injection to keep my engine "alive" on a road course. Your just asking for something to fail in the system and go boom with all the heat and sloshing. Keep it on the street for "fun."
2. You may get rejected by the Director if he or the track workers don't think they have the necessary safety crew/equipment to deal with a "meth" fire. Or if they don't think your tank is safe enough (tech inspection). You can't argue with them unless you've go through the hoops with national, so it's best to just use the right grade of fuel in the first place, safe yourself a big headache later.
(if you do indeed consider using it, just saying).
Tanks containing alcohol (e.g. methanol) that exceed 50% alcohol by volume must carry an FIA FT3 (or higher) rating and be installed per fuel cell regulations found in CCR Section [Ref(15.4)]. Tanks containing 50% or less alcohol by volume may use any container per the manufacturer’s instructions or recommendations. Under all
circumstances tanks or containers must be mounted in an area that is separated from the driver by a bulkhead or firewall.
18.5 Permitted Fuel
Permitted fuel is any grade of commercially available unmodified gasoline, E85 Ethanol, biodiesel, or diesel. The driver must notify the Race Director if using methanol or other exotic fuel, when class rules permit. Vehicles that run on (all or in part) electricity, propane, or hydrogen must be cleared through the National Office in writing.
Two things here. 1 no sane person should rely on ANY kind of secondary pump or injection to keep my engine "alive" on a road course. Your just asking for something to fail in the system and go boom with all the heat and sloshing. Keep it on the street for "fun."
2. You may get rejected by the Director if he or the track workers don't think they have the necessary safety crew/equipment to deal with a "meth" fire. Or if they don't think your tank is safe enough (tech inspection). You can't argue with them unless you've go through the hoops with national, so it's best to just use the right grade of fuel in the first place, safe yourself a big headache later.
(if you do indeed consider using it, just saying).
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: WA Seattle toolanddyedesigns.com
From the 2013 NASA discussion thread:
Personally, I think using any type of injection is unneccessary. Especially when you're not trying to be competitive, and it doesn't help you as NASA has rules on power:weight. It's one less thing to worry about at the track if you don't use it.
Personally, I think using any type of injection is unneccessary. Especially when you're not trying to be competitive, and it doesn't help you as NASA has rules on power:weight. It's one less thing to worry about at the track if you don't use it.
You quoted the NASA rules, which I said I already have....I'm good with NASA, I just need SCCA's current rulings.
There is a difference between not trying to be competitive and not needing/wanting the power. I want atleast 500whp because that is what I want. I don't care what class or power:weight that places me in because I'm just doing it for fun, ie to "keep it off the street". I like to drive fast and it's best not to do it on the street. I'd also like to become a better driver in general. It's been a few years since I've been on the track, looking forward to getting back into it. I just need to know what the rules are before I make the purchase.
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I'm not asking if it's worth it or not. My car is dual purpose or will be dual purpose. I have an FP Black that is going to replace the current FP Green. I don't have access, easily, to E85 and running an FP black on straight pump on a stock 2.0L bottom-end is really not much fun. So until I build the bottom-end to a 2.2 or 2.4L I will need meth to get me any real power. I don't want to have to switch maps etc so I just want one tune that will work for street, daily when I feel like it and the track.
You quoted the NASA rules, which I said I already have....I'm good with NASA, I just need SCCA's current rulings.
There is a difference between not trying to be competitive and not needing/wanting the power. I want atleast 500whp because that is what I want. I don't care what class or power:weight that places me in because I'm just doing it for fun, ie to "keep it off the street". I like to drive fast and it's best not to do it on the street. I'd also like to become a better driver in general. It's been a few years since I've been on the track, looking forward to getting back into it. I just need to know what the rules are before I make the purchase.
You quoted the NASA rules, which I said I already have....I'm good with NASA, I just need SCCA's current rulings.
There is a difference between not trying to be competitive and not needing/wanting the power. I want atleast 500whp because that is what I want. I don't care what class or power:weight that places me in because I'm just doing it for fun, ie to "keep it off the street". I like to drive fast and it's best not to do it on the street. I'd also like to become a better driver in general. It's been a few years since I've been on the track, looking forward to getting back into it. I just need to know what the rules are before I make the purchase.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: WA Seattle toolanddyedesigns.com
No problem man. Just a crappy day at work and feeling like I can't get an answer. I just figured some of you guys would know from spending time at the track and going thru tech etc.
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From: Columbia, MD
Understood, but unfortunately not many people will have answers for you on this because I've never met another driver who runs meth on the track because of the reasons listed above. It doesn't help from a competitive standpoint, which is the bulk of what the folks in this forum are concerned with, and even from a fun perspective having a system which can fail and cause catastrophic engine damage makes it an unpopular choice regardless of the legality for the org.
As I read it Alcohol injection is illegal in any SCCA class.
3.3.3 Safety InspectIons
21) Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles un-less it is specified for this use by the OEM.
The only other reference to Alcohol in the rule book is refering to beverages.
3.3.3 Safety InspectIons
21) Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles un-less it is specified for this use by the OEM.
The only other reference to Alcohol in the rule book is refering to beverages.
If you're concerning yourself with all the issues related to dual purpose anyway (tires, brake pads, etc) you may as well think about running a leaded/93 mix tune and get your leaded fuel at the track (provided they have it, or just bring it). I'm betting you can get the same if not slightly lower/safer power with a 110+/93 mix on a black and simply disconnect the tank/take the fuse out for the pump. We're just going off experience, a big power car that breaks isn't nearly as fun as a slightly lower power car that can go on and on.
Last edited by Balrok; Feb 27, 2013 at 06:37 AM.