Corner entry oversteer - autocrossing - Evo X
Jul 13, 2014, 07:03 PM
#1
Evolving Member
Thread Starter
Corner entry oversteer - autocrossing - Evo X
My new-to-me evo x is driving me crazy with corner entry oversteer. I would appreciate any suggestion as to what I can do to fix the problem.
I am NOT talking about throttle-on oversteer you get with the AYC. I am talking about corner entry oversteer only.
I hate tail happy cars and get very /very/ nervous if the rear end shows even the slightest signs of stepping out during cornering. I love autocrossing but whenever this happens my confidence in the car plummets and my times suffer. Today was my third time autocrossing with the new car and I had to run with ASC on because the car would oversteer with it off.
It is beyond me why I am getting corner entry oversteer in a front heavy AWD car to begin with.
What would you suggest that I do to fix the problem? Some facts about the car:
1. Car is stock other than Eibach lowering springs.
2. Looks like all 4 wheels have around -2 ish negative camber. If anything I would say the rear wheels have *more* negative camber. I am not sure if the previous owner had the car re-aligned after installing the springs.
3. Stock advan tires. All 4 tires are worn a lot more on the outside.
4. I tried 38/37psi first. Car oversteered. Tried 38/34 next and it was much better but still slightly tail happy. Tried 38/32 next and it got worse.
I am NOT talking about throttle-on oversteer you get with the AYC. I am talking about corner entry oversteer only.
I hate tail happy cars and get very /very/ nervous if the rear end shows even the slightest signs of stepping out during cornering. I love autocrossing but whenever this happens my confidence in the car plummets and my times suffer. Today was my third time autocrossing with the new car and I had to run with ASC on because the car would oversteer with it off.
It is beyond me why I am getting corner entry oversteer in a front heavy AWD car to begin with.
What would you suggest that I do to fix the problem? Some facts about the car:
1. Car is stock other than Eibach lowering springs.
2. Looks like all 4 wheels have around -2 ish negative camber. If anything I would say the rear wheels have *more* negative camber. I am not sure if the previous owner had the car re-aligned after installing the springs.
3. Stock advan tires. All 4 tires are worn a lot more on the outside.
4. I tried 38/37psi first. Car oversteered. Tried 38/34 next and it was much better but still slightly tail happy. Tried 38/32 next and it got worse.
Jul 13, 2014, 07:16 PM
#2
IMHO, get the specifics on your alignment. Toe would be a big deal that might explain some goofiness. If you have more negative in the rear than the front, and the car is behaving this way, and your tire pressures aren't insane and you are on stock shocks... see what your toe settings are.
Jul 13, 2014, 08:00 PM
#3
Evolved Member
As it was said above, get the car to alignment shop first and make sure your rear toe is straight. That is one of the things that contributes to all of this probably the most.
Now, when you said you are not experience throttle on oversteer, why would you drive this particular car through the turn without the throttle being applied. EVO X has a pretty darn good magic thing going on with all the electronic gizmos inside and not to use it where it shines the most doesn't make sense. The only way to overcome some of the bad things latest generation has (like lots of weight to carry around) is to utilize everything you have. Typical approach of slow in fast out is very useful here!
And, don't complain about the loose car as much - that is the only way to go fast. If the car is not loose only thing you get is a safe ride - but those are not fast on the course. So, give it a try and dance with it a bit more. It took me more than two years till I started to trust the magic inside to do the right thing and me not to fight it. It is still work in progress, but things are much more fun!
Last thing about rear end being happy. Since you know it will happen, try to work your line to accommodate it and place it the way that will come to your advantage. Extremely important when you walk to course this is!
Good luck!
ps. what region do you race in?
Now, when you said you are not experience throttle on oversteer, why would you drive this particular car through the turn without the throttle being applied. EVO X has a pretty darn good magic thing going on with all the electronic gizmos inside and not to use it where it shines the most doesn't make sense. The only way to overcome some of the bad things latest generation has (like lots of weight to carry around) is to utilize everything you have. Typical approach of slow in fast out is very useful here!
And, don't complain about the loose car as much - that is the only way to go fast. If the car is not loose only thing you get is a safe ride - but those are not fast on the course. So, give it a try and dance with it a bit more. It took me more than two years till I started to trust the magic inside to do the right thing and me not to fight it. It is still work in progress, but things are much more fun!
Last thing about rear end being happy. Since you know it will happen, try to work your line to accommodate it and place it the way that will come to your advantage. Extremely important when you walk to course this is!
Good luck!
ps. what region do you race in?
Jul 14, 2014, 09:23 AM
#4
Definitely get an alignment. Rear toe settings could cause this behavior. Excessive rear toe will also wear your tires out faster, so spending money on an alignment would still be a net win once you factor in longer tire life.
If you have any doubts about whether or not the previous owner re-aligned the car after installing the springs, then you need to get an alignment. The excessive wear on the outside edges of your tires could be a result of the previous owner having the tires flipped due to excessive inside wear.
I'm not familiar with the Eibach lowering springs. Are they quality parts with only a reasonable amount of lowering? Do they require cutting the bumpstop or other such craziness? If the springs are allowing you to hit the bumpstop in a corner, the suspension will go non-linear very rapidly which will upset the car and cause handling issues.
How are you entering corners when the oversteer happens? Are you braking too late into the corner? This will unload the rear wheels and could cause oversteer. Have you tried slow-in, fast-out?
Try doing your braking before initiating the turn, then applying maintenance throttle through the turn and accelerating as you straighten the wheel. This will give you a feel for the different corner entry styles. There is no one-size-fits-all method for taking our cars through the various autocross corners, but it's worth trying all of the different styles to get a feel for how they all differ.
If all else fails, just apply more throttle. Embrace the oversteer.
If you have any doubts about whether or not the previous owner re-aligned the car after installing the springs, then you need to get an alignment. The excessive wear on the outside edges of your tires could be a result of the previous owner having the tires flipped due to excessive inside wear.
I'm not familiar with the Eibach lowering springs. Are they quality parts with only a reasonable amount of lowering? Do they require cutting the bumpstop or other such craziness? If the springs are allowing you to hit the bumpstop in a corner, the suspension will go non-linear very rapidly which will upset the car and cause handling issues.
How are you entering corners when the oversteer happens? Are you braking too late into the corner? This will unload the rear wheels and could cause oversteer. Have you tried slow-in, fast-out?
Try doing your braking before initiating the turn, then applying maintenance throttle through the turn and accelerating as you straighten the wheel. This will give you a feel for the different corner entry styles. There is no one-size-fits-all method for taking our cars through the various autocross corners, but it's worth trying all of the different styles to get a feel for how they all differ.
If all else fails, just apply more throttle. Embrace the oversteer.
Jul 14, 2014, 01:40 PM
#5
Evolving Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the advices guys. Looks like the first step to solving this problem is a new alignment.
I don't think the previous owner had flipped the tires. Aren't the stock tires directional?
And the Eibach springs, well, they are also a concern. They seemed to have lowered the car quite a bit (at least 1.5 in+ front and 1.0 in rear). I think the instructions 'recommend' that the bump stops be trimmed but I am not sure if the previous owner actually did so.
I do have the stock springs that came with the car. I can put these back on but I'd like to know whether the Eibachs actually are the culprit before I do so.
So far I have raced with south jersey region but will probably be racing with DC region in the fall.
I don't think the previous owner had flipped the tires. Aren't the stock tires directional?
And the Eibach springs, well, they are also a concern. They seemed to have lowered the car quite a bit (at least 1.5 in+ front and 1.0 in rear). I think the instructions 'recommend' that the bump stops be trimmed but I am not sure if the previous owner actually did so.
I do have the stock springs that came with the car. I can put these back on but I'd like to know whether the Eibachs actually are the culprit before I do so.
So far I have raced with south jersey region but will probably be racing with DC region in the fall.
Last edited by Prime12; Jul 14, 2014 at 01:44 PM.
Jul 14, 2014, 05:27 PM
#6
How are you entering corners when the oversteer happens? Are you braking too late into the corner? This will unload the rear wheels and could cause oversteer. Have you tried slow-in, fast-out?
Try doing your braking before initiating the turn, then applying maintenance throttle through the turn and accelerating as you straighten the wheel. This will give you a feel for the different corner entry styles. There is no one-size-fits-all method for taking our cars through the various autocross corners, but it's worth trying all of the different styles to get a feel for how they all differ.
If all else fails, just apply more throttle. Embrace the oversteer.
Try doing your braking before initiating the turn, then applying maintenance throttle through the turn and accelerating as you straighten the wheel. This will give you a feel for the different corner entry styles. There is no one-size-fits-all method for taking our cars through the various autocross corners, but it's worth trying all of the different styles to get a feel for how they all differ.
If all else fails, just apply more throttle. Embrace the oversteer.
It took me a while to figure out how the car reacts on corner entry too. If your alignment is good then follow this guy's advice. Our cars will oversteer pretty easily without the AYC (I race off/off) but it's still very easy to control compared to most rwd cars. I've noticed I can apply more throttle through corners too, with or without oversteer.
I don't think the previous owner had flipped the tires. Aren't the stock tires directional?
And the Eibach springs, well, they are also a concern. They seemed to have lowered the car quite a bit (at least 1.5 in+ front and 1.0 in rear). I think the instructions 'recommend' that the bump stops be trimmed but I am not sure if the previous owner actually did so.
I do have the stock springs that came with the car. I can put these back on but I'd like to know whether the Eibachs actually are the culprit before I do so.
And the Eibach springs, well, they are also a concern. They seemed to have lowered the car quite a bit (at least 1.5 in+ front and 1.0 in rear). I think the instructions 'recommend' that the bump stops be trimmed but I am not sure if the previous owner actually did so.
I do have the stock springs that came with the car. I can put these back on but I'd like to know whether the Eibachs actually are the culprit before I do so.
I doubt your springs are affecting your alignment much, but you should have it checked regardless. As others have said, the camber and toe settings can really change how your car handles.
FWIW I'm on Swift Spec-R springs and stock struts with alignment settings of -2*F and -1.5*R with 0 toe all around.
Jul 15, 2014, 07:39 AM
#8
Evolving Member
Thread Starter
Ok, went to get an alignment today and it was interesting what the car had.
Front L R
Camber -1.7 -2.1
Toe 0.17deg IN 0.33 deg IN
Rear L R
Camber -1.5 -1.8
Toe 0.26deg IN 0.29deg IN
Total Toe 0.55 deg
Thrust Angle -0.01 deg
No toe-out anywhere but rather excessive toe in on both the front and the rear. The tech (a fellow autocrosser who set the FTD at the last event) wasn't sure if the bad alignment could have caused the tail-happiness.
He did say that my tires are at the end of, er, their 'sticky-life' and could be causing the problem.
Here is what I got after the alignment
Front L R
Camber -1.7 -2.1
Toe 0 0
Rear L R
Camber -1.5 -1.5
Toe 0.10deg IN 0.10deg IN
What do you guys think? Is it possible the bad alignment caused the tail-happiness?
Front L R
Camber -1.7 -2.1
Toe 0.17deg IN 0.33 deg IN
Rear L R
Camber -1.5 -1.8
Toe 0.26deg IN 0.29deg IN
Total Toe 0.55 deg
Thrust Angle -0.01 deg
No toe-out anywhere but rather excessive toe in on both the front and the rear. The tech (a fellow autocrosser who set the FTD at the last event) wasn't sure if the bad alignment could have caused the tail-happiness.
He did say that my tires are at the end of, er, their 'sticky-life' and could be causing the problem.
Here is what I got after the alignment
Front L R
Camber -1.7 -2.1
Toe 0 0
Rear L R
Camber -1.5 -1.5
Toe 0.10deg IN 0.10deg IN
What do you guys think? Is it possible the bad alignment caused the tail-happiness?
Jul 15, 2014, 07:59 AM
#9
Evolved Member
Bad alignment can do lots of weird thing, so I wouldn't even try to chase that one. Now that you have better one, go and test it and tell us how things are right now.
Few things that I can see from above:
1. your front left camber is only 1.7 - something is not right there for sure. Either camber bolt is not at the right position or even worse - something is bent! You could also just gained that camber with car being dropped and uneven drop is causing the difference. If so, I would make sure you bring them at the same level. What amount needs to be set depends on what you are going to do with the car. For just DD, 2.1 degree is fine. If you are trying to chase time out on the course, you might need more, but tire wear might be an issue.
2. rear toe is not at zero - now this is something small at this time, but I would still bring it back to zero next time around. Truth is that more toe in would help with rear end being too loose, but I don't think this is what is hurting you here. Also, having zero static toe will decrease amount of tire wear when car is driven straight.
3. worn tires - having tires that have very little grip will be another reason for loose rear end. Get a replacement for those and things will improve a lot in that regard.
Now, go out there and see how the car feels and let as know!
Few things that I can see from above:
1. your front left camber is only 1.7 - something is not right there for sure. Either camber bolt is not at the right position or even worse - something is bent! You could also just gained that camber with car being dropped and uneven drop is causing the difference. If so, I would make sure you bring them at the same level. What amount needs to be set depends on what you are going to do with the car. For just DD, 2.1 degree is fine. If you are trying to chase time out on the course, you might need more, but tire wear might be an issue.
2. rear toe is not at zero - now this is something small at this time, but I would still bring it back to zero next time around. Truth is that more toe in would help with rear end being too loose, but I don't think this is what is hurting you here. Also, having zero static toe will decrease amount of tire wear when car is driven straight.
3. worn tires - having tires that have very little grip will be another reason for loose rear end. Get a replacement for those and things will improve a lot in that regard.
Now, go out there and see how the car feels and let as know!
Jul 15, 2014, 01:01 PM
#10
Evolving Member
Thread Starter
Good point about the front camber - I guess I should have checked.
I thought about zeroing the rear toe but the alignment tech didn't think it was a good idea especially if my rear tires were losing grip.
BTW, I googled around a bit and found a checklist by Carrol Smith. Too much rear toe-in apparently CAN cause the rear end to lose grip:
I am not sure whether 0.26 and 0.29 deg toe in qualify as 'too much' but I am attending another autocross this weekend so we'll find out soon enough.
I thought about zeroing the rear toe but the alignment tech didn't think it was a good idea especially if my rear tires were losing grip.
BTW, I googled around a bit and found a checklist by Carrol Smith. Too much rear toe-in apparently CAN cause the rear end to lose grip:
Rear toe-in—too much
Rear feels light and unstable on corner entry
A slight feeling of rear tippy-toe type hunting on corner entry can be due to excessive rear toe-in or to excessive rear rebound forces
Rear feels light and unstable on corner entry
A slight feeling of rear tippy-toe type hunting on corner entry can be due to excessive rear toe-in or to excessive rear rebound forces
I am not sure whether 0.26 and 0.29 deg toe in qualify as 'too much' but I am attending another autocross this weekend so we'll find out soon enough
.
Jul 18, 2014, 01:29 PM
#13
I, personally, would not freak out about the front camber. More than half of the Evo Xs that I've seen have a slight list to the left, which shifts camber from the left to the right. My guess is that nothing is bent and that there's nothing wrong with the bolts. The chassis is simply leaning .2* to the left.
Jul 30, 2014, 06:51 PM
#14
Jul 30, 2014, 07:03 PM
#15
Evolving Member
Thread Starter
. Now that I think about it, I think I saw your car back then - there was only 1 silver evo 9. I also recall seeing a white STI with green wheels that was super fast.