This could be settled rather easily by allowing both drivers to race stock Evos through some timed laps.

But would anybody be interested in seeing such a thing???

Hell yea!!!

So this is your response :lol: you attack us by ignoring all the success we've had with the car and focusing on a few of our "learning experiences" :confused: Notice I have stayed on the "high road" for all these posts and stated this is to help all of us get faster.

The very fact you responded like this proves you don't have a technical leg to stand on {thumbup}

BTW if you run the same set-up on the skidpad you do on the road course that is way too loose! (You do a great job making my points for me most of the time with your comments). Yes we did poorly on the wet skid pad but we did very well on the dry (won our class, 5th overall) and I won it overall the year before. We do a special set-up for the skidpad that I would never drive on the road course (unless I wanted to do drift laps :) ). This is because the skidpad is a continuous circle and you can't trail brake the whole thing (but you can left foot brake which helps on long corners but that another post). So to summarize the skidpad is the only place where your "road course set-up" should be used and is genuinely fast. But real corners have entries and exits as well.

You are right, we could not get our OTC suspension to work. That is why we used OTC to test for One Lap, to learn. We could not get it set up there because it was so under dampened and over sprung that without revalving them on the spot we could not get them even in the ballpark. Very happy to be rid of that very overrated package. We still went pretty quick there didn't we (all things considered, first track time for the car, first time I had driven the car, first time at all the tracks)? We are pretty happy now (with our new custom set-up), seems to go pretty well ;). We are never afraid of failure only not trying (think about it). Again and again and again...THIS IS HOW YOU LEARN

I am still waiting for you or your "oldschool" buddies to provide one modern source of PROFESSIONAL evidence that your set-up (and subsequent driving technique) is the way to go fastest (not just fast). Do you really think that just because you are quickest at a given track day that there is no way you could possibly go faster!?! Race cars are always changing and improving (or you're going to get passed). You just going to increase hp to go quicker or do you want to increase corner speed as well?

Finally, an honest thank you for the diff tip. We did get them same advise from another source at the track but you deserved and received public credit for helping out. As stated we are not afraid to fail (or to look goofy at times). It's all part of the process. I just wish you and RRE (J. Muller) would take the same attitude and discuss here (rather than your flaming). I guess we each have our own styles on and off the track (I prefer to do my attacking on the track).

Awaiting your wordy technical response...(lets keep this productive for all involved :) )

at least you're now willing to admit it :D . Please anwser directly to me saying; trail braking balances the car by increasing front traction for balance rather than you reducing rear traction for balance. I (we all) are dying to hear this.


We knew exactly what was wrong and we posted all about it several times when ever their name came up. We do this to inform and help EVOm members


Knowone has called you anything...except maybe a little closed minded ;)

Chrono is exactly right. A perfect skid-pad setup would be WAY too loose for anything except drifting. That said, it's a great way to set up a drift car ;).

Chrono, I am impressed with your explanations and patience. I hope most of you see that he really is trying to teach.

Everything Chrono has said is spot on. Very good advice. I will probably make it more confusing, but I'm going to give it a shot.

Most cars have a relatively consistent amount of grip. Whith a set amount of grip a certain radius arc will support a certain speed. Period. Bigger arc, more speed, smaller arc, less speed. In a car with zero hp you would simply want to take the biggest arc through the corner.

This is also the same situation with a skidpad. Ideally (on a skidpad) you have the car perfectly balanced WITH NO HP BEING PUT DOWN. If it's a 300 foot skidpad, your car can do exactly "55.78" mph around it (arbitrary number). You have to sneak up on this speed because at 55.50 mph there is a bit more for cornering, but that doesn't leave much for accelerating. So you EASE up on 55.78, where ideally (on a skidpad) you are using all 4 tires EXACTLY to their max. With any car if you were to feed in a BIT of throttle you would transfer weight to the rear, off the front and push wide of the circle. If you lift, the weight will come down on the front wheels, up off the rear, and the nose will tuck, and the tail begin to slide out.

I put every student in my Stage I (brand new, never on a track before) in the skidpad. Most sporting cars have the capacity to hang the tail out under lift throttle, some require a brush of the brakes. It is this download onto the front tires that increases their grip and lets them bite hard enough to turn more.

Back to the arc's. You are running down a straight, coming up on a corner. If the inner radius is 100 feet, and the outer radius is 130 feet, if you use the biggest arc possible you can make a 190 foot arc. That is in the ballpark of 15mph faster than the 130 foot arc. BUT if you are actually on the limit, the car will not support ANY acceleration until the wheel is back straight at the other end of the corner. This is obviously not the fast way 'round.

So what do you do? You do more turning early, say 100 foot arc, so that you can get on the gas as you unwind the wheel. If you don't unwind, the car will push wide anyway as the weight is transfered onto the rear's, off the front's. With rwd you can put lots of power the the rears, so they have less grip for cornering, to balance the unweighting of the front tires. Hence the perfect 4-wheel "drift" (ideally only a 7 degree or so slip at each tire) off the corner. So you have to slow to say 50 mph for the 100 foot, and as you unwind and get on the gas the 150 foot arc will hold 60, the 200 will hold 70, etc.

I know, I know, we are discussing trail braking into the corner, not accelerating off the corner. IT'S THE SAME THING IN REVERSE. As you enter a corner, what are you doing? You are "turning-in." As in, you are turning the steering wheel more. Obviously you are not going from perfectly straight to full turn instantly, you have to roll the steering wheel into the corner. This rolling-in toward the apex is true "turn-in." This is also where you will most likely be doing some sort of trail braking.

It is this turn-in where you want maximum front grip. Once the lateral load has "hit" the back tires, you need them to have grip also. So on the intial turn-in for the corner what you should be most concerned with is the front grip, mid-corner and corner exit you are obviously concerned with both front and rear grip. How do you give more grip to the front? Put more download on them. Without active aero, the only way to put more load on the front tires is to BE BRAKING (or at least off the throttle). We have already discussed that you can't be at FULL braking, but the MOMENT you have realeased some brake force from full threshold braking, there is room for some turning force, as you continue to roll off the brakes, there is room for more. It's actually relatively easy. You can't go from perfectly straight (threshold braking) to the wheel turned all the way instantly. There is a distinct period where you are rolling off the brakes, and into the steering.

It is often taught to think about a string from the pedals to the bottom of the wheel. When you are at full brakes (or full throttle with enough power) the wheel has to be straight. As you roll off the pedals, you should be rolling into the wheel. As you exit the corner you need to be straightening the wheel as you roll into the throttle. To not use this, is leaving time on the table. Period.



All this said, I have driven a car (improperly setup) that would only turn on the throttle. On a wet autocross course with a pitch and stomp driving style it was still fast, by far the fastest in it's class, and almost the fastest that day, but it would have been faster still if it had been setup to turn with the weight on the front wheels.

I had a long explanation for this, but basically put, just because it feels fast doesn't mean it IS fast. Talk to other racers and maybe even get the top guns to drive your car. I have a ways to go on my car, and I imagine many people here are in the same boat. Some people throw suspension parts on and brag, others constantly try to improve upon what may or may not be the best. As fo trail braking, talk to racers or search on places like www.sccaforums.com just because they don't drive an Evo doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.

I don't know how much it applies on this board because it's mostly EVOs, and all front engine cars, but what Chrono said about the more front weighted the car is, the more trail braking it needs is also (obviously) 100% correct.

It all comes down to centripetal force. (Incorrectly known as cetrifugal force) With the extra weight on the nose, in the corner, the front tires have more weight pushing "out" off the corner. The fronts need more grip to deal with the weight. Download pushes the tires into the pavement, but does not push "out" on the car. With more weight in the rear the rear wants to go out anyway.

Obviously this can be dialed out with suspension tuning, as the new 911's are very hard to get the tail out on, and even a front engine AWD car can be setup to be loose on entry. But the only way to get a car to be grip balanced so far from it's weight balance is to remove significant amounts of grip from the lighter end. Hence lowering the overall grip capacity.

To setup a car to utilize the front grip addition of trail-braking, will allow it to have more grip everywhere else. We all know that drifting, while an absolute blast (sometimes more fun than racing) is not the fast way 'round. To have a car setup loose, while even slightly on the gas (transfering weight rearward), is looser than optimum. The corner entry speeds could be higher if they require trail-braking to have added grip to the front. The mid-corner speeds would also be higher if the car is not loose through the middle. More importantly, the mid-corner would likely hold more throttle, in addition to more speed, making the corner exit speed that much better.

Plus being loose all the time just cooks the rear tires.

Now we're making progress {thumbup}

Great explanation siegelracing, It's all such fundamental racing stuff (for most of us!) that is taught on the first days of a advanced driving/racing school.

urbanknight, good points as well. That's their whole argument. "we were the fastest EVO at X track day, so our way IS the best" Yes you had the fastest combo of driver and car that day but does that mean you were perfect, it is impossible for this car/driver combo to go even 1/1000 of a second faster? They are basically answering NO

I want them to do some research put their heads together and refute what we are saying. I still want to make them faster no matter how obstinate they may be. It can only help all of us to talk about this :)

and that makes you.....slower. Well said :beer: :beer:

So, is it a bad Idea to go with a stiffer rear bar on an evo that does not have a coilover set-up as well? Or better question, is it of any benefit in your opinion, to have the Stiffer Bar? Just curious.


Percy

Haga, most likely stiffer bars will be better than stock, but it's always a question of balance. A lot depends on your spring rates, tires, and track. The combination of spring and bar are most of what defines your "wheel rate." Which is a big part of what defines your mid-corner balance.

If you have excessively stiff rear springs then you might not want a stiff bar. It's not likely that you have enough spring to not want a stiff bar, but without knowing your setup I would say try and get as much adjustment as possible. Having an adjustable rear bar is a good way to do "coarse" balance adjustments.

Taken to the extreme, there have been highly successful, light, low, race cars that ran stiff enough springs to not need bars at all. This doesn't really apply here.....

Just know that one of the best things about bars is how easy they are to adjust. Getting an adjustable bar front and rear really helps you dial up an appropriate setup for different activities / tracks.

Thanks a bunch, I appreciate it.

Percy

No it's ok (and gets more technical from here :( )

The bigger rear bar does decrease rear grip to gain balance, the trick and difference between this and what the RRE camp is doing is that they are taking a lot more grip away from the rear to the point that you must drive the car through on the throttle (therefore eliminating the possibility of increasing front grip with trail braking). Does that make sense?

In other words a little is ok but too much slows you down.

Now (take a deep breath) we run the biggest rear bar that is sold (RRE's BTW :) ) and a softer front bar combined with a stiffer spring rate up front to compensate for the smaller bar. You would rather control roll with spring rather than bar (because bars generally decrease grip as they stiffen and springs don't). You don't want to be too high with spring rates on a street based tire because the tire end up being the softest part of the suspension (not good because it is undampened). So we maximize front grip then balance the car with the rear bar and spring rates. The difference between us and them is where we set the balance (we choose not to ignore the nose heavy nature of the car and fully utilize the extra grip that trail braking provides).

I would imagine they are being pretty aggressive on rear alignment settings as well if the car is as loose as it seems.

Great question Percy {thumbup}

I can comment firsthand on how inappropriate a "skidpad" set-up is for the street or track. After we got the car back from One Lap, I forgot to adjust the suspension back to normal street/track settings. The first on-ramp I took (with Dustin) nearly had us drifting precariously towards a light pole. My first response (before I figured what was going on) was "Did someone grease up the rear tires?!"

Not good! {thumbdwn}

shiv

That is pretty funny. As usual, Chrono is correct, it all comes down to balance.

He is also correct that you would rather control balance with springs than bars. Hence certain race cars actually being able to do without bars. That said, even the car that I am talking about ended up adding sway bars later just because they can so easily be made driver-adjustable. Being able to adjust the bars during a race can be invaluable as conditions change. Bars really do, for the most part, reduce grip at that end as you go stiffer. That said, bigger bars front and rear can increase overall grip if the car had too much roll before.

Even without driver adjustable bars, most people don't want to be changing springs at the track, but adjusting bars is easy.

Another reason some people go with lots of bar (then again it looks like a huge rear bar may be the way to go) is that if the car sees street duty, the bar only really comes into play in corners. You can run softer springs, which for some, are more livable in a daily driver. The bar still keeps the car flat in hard cornering, but has little effect on daily ride.

All that said, even HUGELY stiff springs are relatively livable daily if the damping is correct. (I drive my Spec Miata most days ;) not that those are hugely stiff, but I have setup and daily driven cars with 670 pound (12k) front springs)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: - a common practical joke at the garage?