WestSideBilly

It seems you are not up to date on World Rally Championship, European Rally Championship, and Asian Pacific Rally Championship, to mention the 3 largest related championships:

Group N was being somewhat replaced by R1/R2/R3/R4/R5, and Evo happily took R4! Won.
While Group N still lived.
That has changed since last year (2014), and Group N is now going to be THE Premier "showroom stock" type of class again!
The info is straight from Racecar Engineering, latest issue, and Race Tech, latest issue.

None the less, Ford is trying hard in R5 to compete with Mitsubishi new Mirage, so R5 is well and alive, as is R2, where Ford Fiesta Ecoboost 1.0 Turbo is contesting the championship.

Fact stays, Evo is after 1996 Evo IV thru Evo X the "close to showroom' class winning Rally Car, and the trend is continuing at the peek of the competitive edge - championships...

That competitiveness translates in a chassis that those that do drive it to the edge, and can/have skills, find to be for them most competitive and enable them to either enjoy the experience, or win if that is what they are after, including in Hill Climbs in EU/UK, Austrlalian Tarmac Series, and more.

As much as we are speculating, just like BRZ/FRS/GT86 hoopla over amazing new sports-car deflated, and similarly new WRX/STi met the same end, as have many more "Marketing/Finance/Budgeting Department" led efforts, I unfortunately do not see the same dedication in the Focus AWD project as I do see in Ford's own Ford GT.
Nor as I do see in Porsche's commitment to GT3/Cup Cars, to mention another raced platform that consistently delivers regardless of marketing.
This is the reason why the Evo and GT3 are 2 unique cars nearly-ever created, that right out of the box deliver with ease race-car performance.
There are numerous Evo IV-V-VI cars that were raced straight in standard configuration with just rally tires and barely a cage and won rallies...while Group N was even closer to stock.
My neighbor Mark Nelson from San Francisco can tell you all about that! As can many more US competitors, as can many world wide competitors.

But so much discussion: I wish Ford would submit cars to tests by Sport Auto, and similar magazines, to see how it delivers.

 

The RS hasn't even been road tested yet and some of you are SO sure that it won't measure up. This is hilarious to me.

We know the basics; power, AWD, manual, and that's it. We don't know how good suspension geometry is or isn't, we don't know how much it weigh, we don't even know what the steering rack feels like...

And the guy saying ford builds cars by consensus.....EVERY single car manufacturer does this. Engineers are given guidelines from marketing, accounting, etc as to what the car needs to be, and what the budget it. To think any manufacturer doesn't do this is completely ignorant of how any business is run.

Also, something tells me ford doesn't really care about niche rally racing results. They don't even use the Focus for WRC, they use the fiesta...

 

I think the difference lies in cars made for homolgation vs. cars made to be sold to the masses for profit.

Speaking of WRC homolgation, it looks like the 2017 rules will have a new crop of homolgation cars, including the Polo-R and Toyota Yaris. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ecial-planned/

 

If we are really talking about WRC homolgation rules and street cars that come from that. Talk about the Fiesta, not the Focus.

 

Well the discussion had taken a turn to how dominant the Evo was/is in Group N. This thread is largely about how the Focus RS will likely stack up to the Evo (since that is the question we all really want answered).

If/when there is a Fiesta RS, I am sure we will be talking about that car too.

 

so educate a noob here... whats closer to stock in rally than just rally tires and a cage? I mean just googling (image search ) group n rally cars, they have intricate cages, aftermarket suspension, crazy interior setups... that seams further from stock than rally tires and barely a cage...

not trying to rip on you or anything in case it comes across that way (recently had some massive misunderstangings on the forum...), I really don't know much about rally and how the classes are broken down, hence the question

 

partly. the thread i was participating in (this one is merged) was just about the car coming to the states finally and speculation of how it will do.

 

Warmmilk,

Like all race-classes, the Group N started off truly stock with few upgrades, and progressed from there: nobody said to start with that an intricate cage was not allowed, but competitors did not "go there". Today they do.

If you look at 99/00 WRC Group A Evo VI/TME you will see a cage that is almost like Autopower bolit-in..that is how thin the tubes are and few of them...its "flimsy" by today's standards.

Same wtih all other mods, originally cars were thrown on Ohlins if owner had money, or even driven stock.
The Evo V and VI in near-stock configuration had ZERO opponents.


I have a test by Echappement magazine, one of the most reputable magazines in the world form France, where they tested a WRC Subaru 1999 (S6?) against bone stock Evo VI LHD (RS2) on Rallycross circuit- so both asphalt/concrete and dirt.
The Evo beat the WRC S6 Subi -the 22b look-a-like real deal WRC car 2 door beast.
For some reason the Evo simply stuck and drove, stock car.

Move foward and teams pushed the rules, rules changed, homologations expanded, and today Group N is not stock...but in race-car world...it really is mild in comparison to other categories/classes.


And I have to admit: so much speculation..I feel dizzy and silly.

Lets see the car..I wish it well and hope we get an option that has not existed so far.
Although I love the idea of a fast FWD car, French Taramc Rally Series is especially inspiring as are SoCal Time Attack/Honda Challenge competitors, but AWD with drifting ability and RWD like drive (AYC/RS Plated Diff in Evo) really is more enjoyable.

I admit...speculation. Lets see the car.

 

Hey, whoever started this is clever: I had no idea a post got turned into a new TOPIC.

I think we have the same goal here: to have the fastest cars from point A to point B.
This Point A to Point B fastest car is a notion that may have started in late 90's when Evo magazine (1998 first issue) started testing plethora of Homologation Specials: the ethos being the Pleasure of Driving, and ultimate performance over any given real road.
The real road means not track, or autocross, but real roads in such places as rural UK, Ireland, Holland, Germany, Italy, France, of course USA backroads.

With this notion in mind, we are all here because Evo has proven to be the fastest A to B car, for the most part: near off the showroom floor, and off the showroom floor.

The Evo has also proven itself in competition and disciplines that niche enthusiasts pursue: Drag Racing, Time Attack, Rally Cross, aside from as road and rally car.

So with the near availability of the Focus RS AWD we are excited and hopeful that we may have an option of a yet better car to enjoy in near future: taking accumulated years of technology advances and car-building experience, we hope Ford has built a true successor to Evo, a step ahead, a cut above, an even more sports oriented road car.

Unfortunately, the info will be minimal, even Sport Auto, Evo ,and Car Magazine, have not had an opportunity to sample the new Focus RS AWD.

With the 2.3 Duratec I doubt it will be homologated into R4 or Group N, as the motor should be 2.0. But that is not our focus- we simply enjoy the benefits of the homologation purposes built Evo, but if a better choice is out there, surely many of us will gladly move on to enjoy the next Big Hit.

The Ditko built Mirage Evolution (Evo X drivetrain) that RobEvo brought up is an interesting option for all out sport purposes: if you watch the new Audi/Ford/Renault/Peugeot rallycross machines, they are so capable that nothing stands up to them: supercars like Koenigsegg, Pagani, Lamborghini, Ferrari, etc may have an advantage at some supersonic speed above 130mph or even above 150mph, but below the aerodynamic and short wheelbase threashold of stability/efficiency these rallycross short wide 4 wheel drive monsters dominate.

The Mirage Evo X is homologated vehicle. Mirage is sold in USA, cheap, and Evo X drivetrains are available from salvaged cars: combining salvaged Evo X and MIrage may be the ticket to another sports option.

 

Just want to correct that the new Ford motors are Ecoboosts, not Duratecs. Very different motors, much newer design.

Also as an FYI and trivia fact, the Fiesta R5 actually uses a Focus 2.0L block and cylinder head destroked to 1.6L to fit within R5 rally rules. It does not use the 1.6L ecoboost. I assume they do this because the Focus 2.0L head is a much better flowing design and uses components that are built stronger than the Fiesta 1.6L.

 

Thank you for correction: how I made that statement is beyond comprehension now..and Fiesta R5..great info!

There is Youtube Video of Focus RS AWD on Nurburgring called Focus RS and GT3 RS playing...first lap was ok, but second lap the Focus picked up pace behind the GT3 RS (privately driven) and it was real pleasure watching.

Trivia wise: Fiesta R2 uses 1.0 Ecoboost 3 cylinder, that was shown to produce 200bhp in Formula Ford Concept in 2014, and although power is secret, its suggested that it's about 165bhp and more to come. With torque exceeding the 1.6 liter R2 cars for better acceleration.

The R2 is self-limiting/limited, as its using totally OEM engine/turbo. The turbo is small-ish and power drops off by ~6000rpm, but torque is significant low down.

 

Any idea how much the Dytko Proto - Mirage costs? http://translate.google.com/translat...l/&prev=search
Someone stateside needs to do this conversion, though I suspect sorting out the suspension geometry would be tricky.

 

I dunno about that. The 991 GT3 is something like 13 secs faster at Thunderhill stock vs stock compared to Evo 8/9/10. It's a serious car.

You talking about this video?


That's the last generation Focus RS. FWD. A production Focus RS AWD does not exist yet.

I also take videos like this with a grain of salt. I have videos of myself passing a Ferrari F430 at Thunderhill. Doesn't mean the car is slower.

Something like this?



That is my personal Fiesta ST on E45.

 

i love this thread

i like ford and mitsubishi rally cars. they are both awesome! always been that way.

just mitsubishi tend to be more reliable on rally stages. but regardless i love ford fiesta and focus.

ps tbis way finally ken block ford could be some what legal in rally in tbe usa.... just saying

 

That is the video, I assumed it was testing of the AWD Focus, and GT3 was as you say not pulling away as it was clearly a privately owned/driven car.

On track GT3 is really fast, but I did not see that translate on road, as the even modestly bumpy surface and more evens out the performance of GT3 to level of mildly optimized Evo.

Yes- your Fiesta torque curve is like R2 rally car.


Ditko Mimage is about 39K Euro for basic car, arrive and drive home: they get all parts.