Shiv (and others),

Suppose you get a car and put it on the dyno to custom tune. After one hour of tuning, you realize that the car has been already optimally tuned and you can only get 5whp more from the base run and AFRs are relatively the same.

Question: Does the customer still pay? IOW, what's the minimum whp gain before the customer *has* to pay for tuning?

-M

 

im sure you pay for the time not for the amount of power increase..

 

Hmm.. I don't think that tuners would get very far in their business if they tune and don't gain any significant whp from base. What would be the point? I know this is a very rare thing - but how would a tuner deal with that scenario?

-M

 

Yes, we expect customers to pay for time...just strapping down the car should yield payment of some type as there is some "work" involved in the procedure...
The general condition of the car/bike is useually not known until everything is set up....this includes if it is dialed in or not
If a mechanical faliure occurs that is unrelated to adjustments made while on the dyno is the customer still expected to pay?......I think in most cases they should
It's a tough one....and I try to be fair and go on a case by case basis
Why are you asking?
Also what is "base" and where did base come from?

 

I think depending on the base run and mods then the tuner will determin if he can make more hp.(or if it's worth getting tunned again)

 

If you get your oil changed and upon dumping the old the tech realizes the oil still appears new and clean as it runs from the pan.....are you expected to pay for the oil change?
Of course you are....Food for thought

 

You are paying for a service that is being done to your car. That involves the the tuners time and the time of the facilty that you are getting the dyno done at. I'm sure Shiv would love to get a ton of horsepower out of your car, but you still have to pay for his time regardless if its a 5 horsepower increase or a 50 horsepower increase. That's life my friend.

 

I think we, XEDE users, get a little use to not having to pay for tuning (free maps from Vishnu). I remember when I had my stage 1+ and only gained 10hp over the base map off the web. Shiv's tuning rate is pretty cheap too when compared to going to your local tuner shop.

As for your question, I think it really depends on the tuner and the car. A 5hp gain on an untuned EVO would make me a little disappointed. I would hope they would, at least, cut me a break.

 

I agree. But I was talking more about an entire tune.

I was asking because I wondered if there was ever a case where a car was pretty much already tuned and didn't yield better results. It's a fair question albeit a rare occurance.

By "base" - I mean the baseline dyno number when you first do a run on the dyno.

Here's an example..suppose I got my car tuned by tuner X, and he got a 10awhp gain. Pay him.. then go to tuner Y and try to get more whp with the same tune. Tuner Y only gets 2whp because tuner X already optimized the tune. I agree that paying to put the car on the dyno should be the responsibility of the customer, but I also believe that if tuner Y charged for a full tune, it would be unfair.

No matter how we look at it.. if a tuner doesn't produce a certain "acceptable" amount of whp increase from a base run after tuning on average from customer to customer, I would think he would lose his business because customers would see it as paying high dollar for little gain.

If we are all honest with ourselves, it's all about the ratio of money::hp in the tune. Noone is going to pay $1,000 for 5whp just as everyone would pay $500 for 100whp.

-M

 

Maybe I should charge on a sliding scale then.....say $20.00 per 1 whp
Just joking ......but if that was the case I would be trading my dyno tomorrow for a Dynojet
Not quite sure how those who still claim they "roadtoon" would make any money though on this sliding scale pay system....

 

What if you drove an NSX or S2000, or a motorcycle and were staying N/A? Getting 5whp out of a car that already has full bolt ons would be a big ahchievement. They would have to pay, so do you.

 

Tuning is not to see if you can make X power to the wheels, just because you feel that's what the car should make. Now, granted there are some tuners out there that will make your X peak number just because they know that'what you want to see. And those same guys will leave the rest of the RPM range in ruin.

Maybe you've lost the big picture of what tuning is all about. Tuning is about gettnig optimal performance from your car. And that comes from your car being tuned to run within optimal parameters, and the power is a result of that. Not the other way around, where you are looking to get X power and adjust those parameters just so that the car will make that power.

I think that far too many people out there are looking at it backwards, and are only concerned with the peak number. And those people generally don't know anything about tuning, that's why they choose "Tuner X" in the first place. They do that because of what they've read about "the numbers" people are getting from "Tuner X", and they forget to check that resume.

For me, I want someone tuning my car that I know has a SOLID knowledge about tuning in general, as well as application specific in this case EVO knowledge. Someone that is going to make the car run well, and safely. Not someone who is interested in me posting big numbers on the forums so that they can sell more "toons" through the mail.


And yes, if Tuner Y works on your car and doesn't make ANY power he should be paid for his time. It's just like going to the doctor for a physical and him telling you that you're in good shape and all is well. Then he sends you a bill.

 

LOL! Nice!

-M

 

This is certainly *not* true in practice. You would be lying if you told me that you'd be satisfied that with every single mod you put on the car, the tuner was only able to gain 5whp increments and you pay $300-$400 a pop. Please be honest here..

The extra power *CAN* be a result of that. It depends on the tuner and his/her tastes.

But every car ethusiast/tuner brags about how much HP they picked up after tuning the car. I've never heard of a tuner talking about how well he was able to get a perfect knock-free AFR during a dyno run where that's the ONLY sheet he/her posts.

Playing devils' advocate here. Just as there is a charge per hour on the dyno, there could also be a limit to what a tuner *wants* to achieve on the dyno. For example, way back in 2002, I had my RX7 tuned at a tuner shop who ran my car extremely rich. It was clear that he could've gotten more power out of the car (at least 30-40rwhp) safely, but instead left it so rich that the car was shooting black smoke on WOT followed by hestitation in any temperature lower than the dyno run that day. For whatever reason, he may have mentioned (safety, etc..), it could be said that getting only $300 for 60whp wasn't quite fair to the tuner...so he *could* have ran it rich (or low on timing) on purpose thereby decreasing the 60whp to 30whp to justify his charge.

It's certainly possible..


-M

 

you're implying that the tuner is selling whp.. I dont think alot of people see it that way.. I think that the tuner is providing a service and charging $ per hr. Now, if the tune is near perfect and the time it took to provide the service was short, then it would would be fair to pay less.