I want to stop for a minute here to pause and think. What is really going on?

I'll tell you guys what I think the problems are and propose some solutions. After thinking about if for a couple of days, I think we're not going about it exactly the right way.

Anger stems from our side because Al calls foul and says we're heat soaking the cars. This causes drama for several reasons:

(1) Al was not even there.
(2) We ran up *every* car to make the most power it could.
(3) We took the very best pass of the dynoflash cars as example.

I didn't get to talk to Snoop as much as I would've liked to get to know him, but I talked to Mike (MYEVOVIII) for awhile, and really liked him.

I stop and think about all this and its pretty simple really. I'm a Vishnu customer because I'm glad to pay a little more for extra power and safety. In short, I want the best, and that's why I'm here. The old addage: "You get what you pay for" really applies here. The reason I like Shiv's tuning methods is because he has years of experience, a good hardware system for precision tuning, and most of all- he's a tech guy. To me, that's really important.

I know that all of you there saw his dedication. Shiv doesn't let any car off the dyno until he is satisfied that its making the safest, most repeatable power possible. For a tuner, there is absolutely no greater praise that can be given. Both dyno days that I have been present for, Shiv has stayed up very late into the night tuning cars. It doesn't matter if your only mod is a $400 XFlash or a complete Stage 1+ with race gas, he will tune your car until it is right, no matter how long it takes. That type of dedication is why I'm here and why I'll not leave. I get in my car everyday and know it is as safe and powerful as possible with the modifications I have, and I have dyno proof to back it up.

The next thing I want to address is this knock sensor issue. Al's claims that Shiv's manipulation of the knock sensor issues are either (a) Scare tactics, or (b) His misunderstanding the concept. Fact: A car tuned by Shiv will have less noise and no knock (I heard this myself through headphones in Dallas). Vishnu cars are NOT on the ragged edge, on the contrary Vishnu means [/i]preserver[/i]. Interesting, isn't it? From the beginning, Shiv's platform has always been "The best power possible witha margin of safety." Because of that cushion, he hasn't had any Evos let go on him. Al's scare tactics are very hollow in light of this reality.

Next up, lets talk anout Dynoflash. Al claims 20whp from his flash, and it does deliver that. That's one reason I tout the XFlash Challenge. I've witnessed the power the stock/default XFlash maps make compared to a stock/default Dynoflash map, and there is a very quantifiable difference. The reason you didn't see a lot of base map comparison in Georgia? Shiv was on hand! Why pay to dyno a mail in map when you can have it perfected to your car? Let's face it, most customers who have an XFlash or a Dynoflash do use the mail in maps. Shiv and Al aren't omnipresent, they have lives to attend to and cannot custom tune every car in the USA. The Xflash map costs $400 to the Dynoflash $200, but you're paying for a map that makes more power AND better fuel economy in closed loop tuning, which Al's maps do not even touch. If you're looking for value, the Xflash has it!

Want more power and lots more features? Look at the XEDE! As noted at the dyno day, a stock car with only an XEDE custom tuned ($899 total), made more power than a car with a dynoflash and an exhaust ($1100). I realize that money is a factor; I sure didn't get all this stuff at one time. But I built up my car piece by piece as I could afford it, and couldn't be hapier with the results!


Here's the core of the post and the main thing I wanted to talk about anyway: The fighting. My desire is simple- After two dyno days and almost 15,000 miles of abusing the crap out of my car with Vishnu parts, I'm a complete believer. I want to see Shiv's company grow and hear about more tuning successes like the cars that were at Dyno4mance last weekend. I want us to all elevate and make that happen. I want the Vishnu guys to be the most helpful on the forum. If Al wants to sit in his forum and fabricate lies, I say we sit back here and laugh about it. I want us to educate people with proof and bring more customers who want really safe and fast cars into the fold! By not stooping to their level and fighting with them, maybe we can set an example around this place. The dyno doesn't lie! I was sitting in front of it and next to Shiv for almost every car at the dyno day. The results are 100% real, and would be confirmed at any other dyno in the country.

Please examine these results and my post carefully. I'm not a Vishnu employee, just a very satisfied customer who has seen the truth first hand several times! Guys, the best thing we can do for Shiv and Vishnu is not to flame Al and his camp. The best thing we can do is spread the word about how satisfied we are with our cars. That, after all, is the service we're paying for!


Seth

 

To all.....We have been given the ok to ban individuals who continue to cause problems. So please keep all posts civil and non-inflammatory in nature. You have been warned.



This all comes down to personal preferences and opinions more than it does to fact. I like coke...others like pepsi. But I don't go out of my way to force my opinion on others. Sure you can quantify what people prefer and why, but those reasons will be mostly emotion based.

One thing I do know, the bickering that goes on in these forums has to stop. We are all here to gain technical knowledge, not be part of some internet docu-drama.


Would any one see value in having an impartial Dynoflash vs Vishnu Xflash Dyno Grudge Match?

Evolutionm.net could possibly arrange an event that will allow direct comparison between the 2 brands of mail-flashes and custom tuned flashes.

SC~

 

Secret Chimp-

You know as well as I that this will not happen from Al's side. Heck, we could have Al, Shiv, and a few people from each camp to watch the dyno, but in reality from all the dyno results I've seen, nine months of tuning cannot match ten years of tuning. Al will decline as he has in the past, and resort to marketing hype as always. I'd LOVE to see it happen, but it won't. Snir knows it as well, look at the Fireball post in the Dynoflash forum.

The reason there was anger was because Al accused us of heatsoaking the cars. Of course that's going to **** us off! We did everything to get the best runs out of the Dynoflash cars. Ask Snoop and Mike; they will verify this. In the end, we wanted the truth, but the war in these forums cannot handle the truth. From my vantage point of running the dyno at the first event and assisting at the second event, I can assure you that my input is 100% technical based. Any emotional inputs that are arising are coming from anger stemmed from the mudslinging against the truth (claiming we heatsoaked the cars).

Seth

 

In essence it seems like a good idea to have a "grudge match" and hash things out, but like you said it still comes down to brand loyalty. What I mean is, no matter what quantifiable data is produced the two sides are going to come up with something to stir up the waters. Wether it's true/real or not. It's human nature.

I agree wholeheartedly that we need to stop the bickering. Why can't we let this come down to pure business competition? I've not seen McDonalds blasting Burger King all over the web because Burger King isn't as good and they have billions of loyal fans to prove it. What we see is two businesses competing on a coporate scale to prove who can win the most hearts and repeat customers (read: money). Because after all that's what it's all about. Making your business a success.

Noize, I'm glad you had a great experience with Vishnu, that's awesome! And I think your post caries in it a good message; towards the end. But it's difficult to overcome how one sided your first few paragraphs are. Once I read the top I had trouble beleiving the bottom. Now please don't get this wrong, I'm not trying to start a flame war at all. I just think we should stick to the message at the bottom of your post. Prove your brand by winning customers and proving your worth; and indeed Dynoflash should do the same. But calling people out just adds to the whole dissagreement.

I think that each side should concern itself more with making the evo community a better experience than trying proving they are better than the other. We all love this car so much we're willing to go to blows over who's is better; but that's an unhealthy attitude IMO. Let business be business (which is a competative thing) but on a corporate level, not on a personal level. Beleive me, the nature of business is that sooner or later customers will seperate the wheat from the chaffe on their own; in the end gravitating towards the side whose beleif system they adhere to the most. But there will never be one clear winner; just two businesses that compete to make the evo a better vehicle everyday.

-just two cents. :-)

 

I have to disagree slightly, tuning does come down to fact. Tuning is not based on opinion like the taste of something. There are opinions on how to go about tuning, but in the end only one car is in front.

Shiv is "new" to the 4G63 (as far as I have read here), but not new to tuning principals, and I'm guessing that he was a great understanding of engine mathmatics and bit-flipping. My pal Clark Steppler is very gifted in this area and has shown me tuning an engine comes down to mathmatics and compromises. If you can nail the VE of an engine you can work backwards from there to calculate many, many things.

Altering or removing det sensor results are used by good tuners that fully understand an engines characteristics. Some may have forgotten that det sensors were not widely used until the early 80s on mainstream cars. Before that people used det cans and their good old ears. People are getting snowed that det sensors are the cure all. The factory uses them to adjust for the fact that they cannot tune each and every car by hand and purpose. They are a great aid.

Al is using a time honored method to break into a market - flood it. You dont have to be the best, but if you're cheap there are plenty of people that are cheap too, just be there with product in hand. As long as the product "works" and doesnt destroy anything you've got an iron foot in the door. Al has mellowed out dramtically vs his old posts. He's a bright guy, but is still learning engine tuning since his suby days. I would be highly surprised if there were a direct comparison between the two. It'd be a first in many, many years of gregarious bickering.

 

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The tuning is certainly a science. And with science there often is fact.

It is the comparing of the hp gains from tuning to anothers tune that is not a science. The interpretation of 2 results, when not conducted in a well controlled and unbiased environment, is certainly seen as slanted opinion by the other camp and not seen as fact. This is why I am trying to see if there would be any interest in a grudge match being conducted in a more controlled and unbiased environment.

Choosing which Vendors tuning 'ethic' matches yours, is certainly an opinion. If you like the brash, loud but results oriented and customer service oriented approach, you choose Dynoflash. If you like the 'speak softly and hold a big weapon' approach, you choose Vishnu.

Choosing whether you like ecu piggybacks, stand alones, or just an ecu flash is certainly an opinion based upon a persons needs. I personally do not need a standalone system. So that eliminated 3 brands of equipment right off the bat. Does that mean I believe these companies are somehow troubled or are living off of false promises? nope. They just don't have the product that meets my needs at this very moment.

While dyno plots (fact) and timeslips (fact) do sell product, a companies reputation (opinions) and it's customer testimonials (opinions) are responsible for just as many sales. The info one gathers before buying anything from any company is part fact and part opinion. Some people just have a hard time seperating the fact from the opinion when they write on these forums. Some people can't see the difference when they read what is written on thses forums. That is where a lot of the problems stem from, in my opinion.

SC~

 

Well said SC. If you think it's possible to have a grudge match and keep it civilized I'm all for it. I'd be VERY curious myself to see the results. It will take some serious moderation though; from what I've seen in the past.

 

It has nothing to do with being cheap on a lot of our parts. I have not cut corners anywhere in putting my car together. I was very skeptical of Al until I watched his methodology in tuning cars. This changed my mind. I'm sure there are many, many people that can safely and accurately tune an ECU. Al just happened to be the one I saw first. He knows he's not my first choice - the #1 slot goes to Tadashi at Technosquare.

I just want everyone to get the most satisfaction out of their Evos, regardless of who did their ECU, what stereo they pick, what color it is, etc. There are reasons why we have choices.

 

Best paragraph on this website evAr!

 

I think it's clear that both "sides" have their supporters, if not, there would be no passion and no "fighting". Each side has had their own experiences - bad and good - that provide fuel for any argument. Every day on Evom I see posts that say "Flash/Vishnu problems... help!" and also "Just got Flashed/VishnuStage1 and I love it!!!" Personally, I bought my Evo because I read about Shiv/Vishnu and what he could do with the car for (relatively) cheap. When I bought my car, we had a local Dynoflash day, which I decided to participate in. I can assure you that had I gone with Vishnu, I'd be happy. I can also assure you that with the Dynoflash, my 300whp/325wtq car puts a smile on my face every morning when I get in, and I've spent a total of $1400 ($1100 if I'd have wisely gone with an MBC). My point is we all own what we consider the best car around, and we've all gone our ways to make it better. I'm not Anti-Vishnu or any other tuner. I am pro-Dynoflash, because I know it is the real deal, as proven to me by my own car.

The real test is not whether you make 305whp as opposed to 310whp, but whether or not you're a satisfied customer and your car is major problem-free.

Incidentally, I don't think that the way to stop the "fighting" is to say things like:
"If Al wants to sit in his forum and fabricate lies, I say we sit back here and laugh about it. "

 

What would you recommend?
Incidentally, you're on a different dyno than we used. I can tell you have a Dynoflash tuned car by your numbers, though, because your peak wheel torque values are higher than your peak whp numbers. That's indicative of all the Dynoflash cars I've ever seen on the dyno: A *big* midrange kick and a sharp Tq taper toward redline.

 

Unfortunately, on the internet, lies tend to propogate unless people take a proactive roll in address them. Al has made countless claims about various features in our XEDE and how they are either ineffective, unnecessary or downright engine-threatening. he is then questioned and is forced to respond. As soon as he digs himself into a hole with obviously innaccurate psuedo-technical drivel, a mod come in and erase everything. That's been our only beef, I think.

 

I have to agree that Al should mostly stick to promoting his own product as opposed to "bashing" others. I do think, though, that "bashing" back is only going to put a man who's proven to be brash and vocal back on the defensive. Clearly, you can't ignore him, but I think, semantically, it's better to say "Our results speak for themselves" rather than "He's a big fat liar". If I lived in the West, I'm sure I'd be a Vishnu guy. For me it's simply a matter of convenience!

It's clear that all of you know more than all of us, and we are proving that by putting our $30K dream machine in your hands.

 

Go Gunners!!!!!!!!! (pronounced goo-ners)

I like Vishnu.

Can we all be friends now?

 

Shiv,

you know i respect you and i have talked to you many times and we do see a lot of thngs the same way. however, you have to admit that a lot of times it is your costumers that come to the dynoflash forum only to start trouble. i can't hold you responsible for a guy like Ryan but you also can't hold Al responsible for Ryan's attacks. things have been great in the past month or so until people decide to go to the dynoflash forum and start a fight with Al.