rapid cylinder wear w/pics
Feb 20, 2007, 07:32 PM
#31
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I will just run E85 to prevent all of this stuff from happening. Alcohol injection just brings about too many more variables into the eqaution that will cause problems. Oh wells.
Feb 20, 2007, 10:16 PM
#32
I have a 05 WW Evo VIII. 37K on the clock so far.
After hearing a little rod knock, I tore the motor down today to inspect.
After removing the oil pan, oil filter, oil pickup, inspected it to find some copper bits, left over bearing.
The piston skirts and cylinder walls are worn quite a bit.
I have been running meth injection for over 6 months everyday.
75% meth/25% water.
After hearing a little rod knock, I tore the motor down today to inspect.
After removing the oil pan, oil filter, oil pickup, inspected it to find some copper bits, left over bearing.
The piston skirts and cylinder walls are worn quite a bit.
I have been running meth injection for over 6 months everyday.
75% meth/25% water.
Feb 20, 2007, 11:00 PM
#33
Some questions worth answering.
Is running excessively rich causing this problem? People who ask this have obviously never run a wideband on a stock car. Stock ecu dumps fuel under boost. My wideband reads in the 9s on a stock turbo car before tuning. Thats why you typically pic up 30-40hp leaning it out to around 11.
Does A/F vary per gear with progressive system. Yep. But its not the problem people make it out to be. blue car was tuned with A/F in 1st around 11.4, and it slowly richens per gear to around 10.8 in 5th.
The blue car was a Mahle piston motor with .004 piston to wall. the 40k mile block was stock evo8 block.
Am I trapping the vacuum side of crank vapors? I leave the PVC setup as normal. The vent line that is normally attatched to the intake tube is left to dangle on top of the tranny. Neither motor had any blowby. No catch can was needed. Only a very fine mist of oil could be found on top of tranny.
Are my systems properly atomized? People need to understand what this means. Atomize by definition means to break up into small droplets. Doen't matter how small the droplets are. Fog is droplets in the air about as small as they can get. Does fog make your windshield wet? Of course it does. Your IC pipes and your intake manifold are like your windshield. They collect fluid on the inner surface even when the mixture is pulverized to oblivion. my pumps bench test at near 250psi. The spray that comes out of the jets is atomized quite nicely. I will be posting a video here soon of what the alkycontrol mist looks like.
What happens to large droplets in the airstream? The air post turbo is extremely violent. Large droplets introduced at the intercooler outlet will become very small atomized droplets by the time they reach the combustion chamber.
Is running excessively rich causing this problem? People who ask this have obviously never run a wideband on a stock car. Stock ecu dumps fuel under boost. My wideband reads in the 9s on a stock turbo car before tuning. Thats why you typically pic up 30-40hp leaning it out to around 11.
Does A/F vary per gear with progressive system. Yep. But its not the problem people make it out to be. blue car was tuned with A/F in 1st around 11.4, and it slowly richens per gear to around 10.8 in 5th.
The blue car was a Mahle piston motor with .004 piston to wall. the 40k mile block was stock evo8 block.
Am I trapping the vacuum side of crank vapors? I leave the PVC setup as normal. The vent line that is normally attatched to the intake tube is left to dangle on top of the tranny. Neither motor had any blowby. No catch can was needed. Only a very fine mist of oil could be found on top of tranny.
Are my systems properly atomized? People need to understand what this means. Atomize by definition means to break up into small droplets. Doen't matter how small the droplets are. Fog is droplets in the air about as small as they can get. Does fog make your windshield wet? Of course it does. Your IC pipes and your intake manifold are like your windshield. They collect fluid on the inner surface even when the mixture is pulverized to oblivion. my pumps bench test at near 250psi. The spray that comes out of the jets is atomized quite nicely. I will be posting a video here soon of what the alkycontrol mist looks like.
What happens to large droplets in the airstream? The air post turbo is extremely violent. Large droplets introduced at the intercooler outlet will become very small atomized droplets by the time they reach the combustion chamber.
Feb 20, 2007, 11:16 PM
#34
Wow that does not look good
I have been runing 100% Meth for years and have never seen ware that bad but most cars that have it dont seem to get to many miles.
I know on my setups I do you will stay way rich for a few secs after you let off the throttle. We did 8.5:1 comp pistons on my GVR4 last year and it had ran a good 15k with meth inj and I did not notce any crazy ware.
I wonder if something like this could help
http://www.torco.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=17
I have been runing 100% Meth for years and have never seen ware that bad but most cars that have it dont seem to get to many miles.
I know on my setups I do you will stay way rich for a few secs after you let off the throttle. We did 8.5:1 comp pistons on my GVR4 last year and it had ran a good 15k with meth inj and I did not notce any crazy ware.
I wonder if something like this could help
http://www.torco.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=17
Feb 20, 2007, 11:49 PM
#36
Allso on all my kits I do with the MAFT, MAFT pro or AEM I set up a switch so you are tuned for no meth low boost 15-20psi and with meth it is 25-35psi depending on car and if you ever lose pressure it will drop to the low boost seting and add fuel back in. So with my kits you have the meth off unless you really want your 70-150hp depending on setup so the amount oif meth my cust use may be much lower than than a car that has it turn on everytime thay get on it.
I also wonder the fact that you are making a min of 80hp more on a good meth setup that it just might make the motor ware faster. So if you were to run the high boost high power for 40k with race gas all the time it could look the same?
Really evos are the 1st 4g63t car you can make a true 400-500hp all day and put 40k on it with out it breaking unlike DSM.
I also wonder the fact that you are making a min of 80hp more on a good meth setup that it just might make the motor ware faster. So if you were to run the high boost high power for 40k with race gas all the time it could look the same?
Really evos are the 1st 4g63t car you can make a true 400-500hp all day and put 40k on it with out it breaking unlike DSM.
Feb 21, 2007, 05:21 AM
#38
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hello all. i am pleased to contribute to this thread which was linked to over at our rx7club.com auxiliary injection section where i am a moderator.
first let me say l love all kinds of AI as it really is a WIN WIN re turbo'd engine durability and power.
what really prompted me to post here was someone's comment as to whether they should run straight alcohol. my position is that water, a mix and alcohol are all good and way ahead of plan B which is to not run AI.
100% methanol is my preference.
i run a rotary w the Alkycontrol system. i run two M10 nozzles for around 1250 cc/minute. i have replaced around 25% of my pump gas w alcohol from 5.5 psi on up to max boost for me at 23 psi.
i run a turbosystem of my own design. two TO4s w two 3 inch downpipes that makes over 80 pounds per minute of air good for 640 rw rotary hp when tuned out. i am around 500+ currently at 18 psi.
i digitally log just about everything. i log digitally egts preturbo from each rotor separately. i log backpressure preturbo digitally. i log fuel pressure digitally, along w all the usual stuff...
so i KNOW what's happening... if you log enough stuff you don't have to be smart.
since i have the data re the issue relating to alcohol and "wall washing" i thought i would share.....
the chart above is part of the log from my last run of the season... oct 30. it was a roll-on 3rd gear pull w boost as high as 18.7 psi. the clutch started to slip and i got out of it.
afrs were in the 11s.
given the delivery from my two TO4s (around 80 pounds per minute at 17-18 psi, my injector duty approx 70% (850 1600) and the amount of methanol, over 1200 cc/min, as well as shredding a 400 ft pound capacity clutch my guess is i was making over 500 rwhp on this run.
note that my AFRs do not get overly rich as i get out of the throttle. my egts also do not dive. this indicates to me that there isn't a major run-on issue. i have discussed the concept w Julio (Alkycontrol) and his conclusion is that there isn't enough alcohol going thru the motor to effect wear. he runs in the 10s on pump and alcohol w his 231 cu in 2 valve 3850 pound buick. so do 100s of his customers. he should know.
as an additional note, i ran my alcohol all season last year and i consistantly gained compression throughout the year. my highest compression reading was the day i put it away for the season.
the key though w re to this thread is found in the above chart. notice as i get totally out of the throttle and the boost drops w the TPS that the egts and afrs stay steady.
no indication of a big flood of alcohol or the afrs would have gone miles rich.
i suggest you post your pictures and info on turbobuick and let Julio comment on your situation. you may have a problem, but it does not lie within the fundamental design of a progressive system.
howard coleman
Feb 21, 2007, 05:28 AM
#39
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Some questions worth answering.
Is running excessively rich causing this problem? People who ask this have obviously never run a wideband on a stock car. Stock ecu dumps fuel under boost. My wideband reads in the 9s on a stock turbo car before tuning. Thats why you typically pic up 30-40hp leaning it out to around 11.
Does A/F vary per gear with progressive system. Yep. But its not the problem people make it out to be. blue car was tuned with A/F in 1st around 11.4, and it slowly richens per gear to around 10.8 in 5th.
The blue car was a Mahle piston motor with .004 piston to wall. the 40k mile block was stock evo8 block.
Am I trapping the vacuum side of crank vapors? I leave the PVC setup as normal. The vent line that is normally attatched to the intake tube is left to dangle on top of the tranny. Neither motor had any blowby. No catch can was needed. Only a very fine mist of oil could be found on top of tranny.
Are my systems properly atomized? People need to understand what this means. Atomize by definition means to break up into small droplets. Doen't matter how small the droplets are. Fog is droplets in the air about as small as they can get. Does fog make your windshield wet? Of course it does. Your IC pipes and your intake manifold are like your windshield. They collect fluid on the inner surface even when the mixture is pulverized to oblivion. my pumps bench test at near 250psi. The spray that comes out of the jets is atomized quite nicely. I will be posting a video here soon of what the alkycontrol mist looks like.
What happens to large droplets in the airstream? The air post turbo is extremely violent. Large droplets introduced at the intercooler outlet will become very small atomized droplets by the time they reach the combustion chamber.
Is running excessively rich causing this problem? People who ask this have obviously never run a wideband on a stock car. Stock ecu dumps fuel under boost. My wideband reads in the 9s on a stock turbo car before tuning. Thats why you typically pic up 30-40hp leaning it out to around 11.
Does A/F vary per gear with progressive system. Yep. But its not the problem people make it out to be. blue car was tuned with A/F in 1st around 11.4, and it slowly richens per gear to around 10.8 in 5th.
The blue car was a Mahle piston motor with .004 piston to wall. the 40k mile block was stock evo8 block.
Am I trapping the vacuum side of crank vapors? I leave the PVC setup as normal. The vent line that is normally attatched to the intake tube is left to dangle on top of the tranny. Neither motor had any blowby. No catch can was needed. Only a very fine mist of oil could be found on top of tranny.
Are my systems properly atomized? People need to understand what this means. Atomize by definition means to break up into small droplets. Doen't matter how small the droplets are. Fog is droplets in the air about as small as they can get. Does fog make your windshield wet? Of course it does. Your IC pipes and your intake manifold are like your windshield. They collect fluid on the inner surface even when the mixture is pulverized to oblivion. my pumps bench test at near 250psi. The spray that comes out of the jets is atomized quite nicely. I will be posting a video here soon of what the alkycontrol mist looks like.
What happens to large droplets in the airstream? The air post turbo is extremely violent. Large droplets introduced at the intercooler outlet will become very small atomized droplets by the time they reach the combustion chamber.
low flowrate = low line pressure = low pump speed = large mist size
high flow rate = high line pressure = high pump speed = fine mist size
for every 10% increase in diameter of mist size - mass increases 40%!
light smaller mist = manuvers better thru the maze of intake piping.
Feb 21, 2007, 05:43 AM
#40
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"Without consistent droplet size is vital to inlet cooling and even cylinder distribution, one will always tune for cylinder receiving the least cooling, resulting over-injection on other cylinders." Richard@aquamist
Feb 21, 2007, 06:19 AM
#41
Howard, your chart actually supports what I am saying as far as I can tell. As soon as you lift throttle A/F should go dead lean. 25/1 or higher. Your A/F line is not doing that. It is staying very close to the 11/1 when you lifted.
Julio is local to me. I am one of his biggest customers. I just talked with him yesterday and he has no reports of accelerated engine wear. But that doesn't mean its not happening. There are plenty of people jumping in and saying they haven't seen any unusual cylinder wear, yet they have never had their head off. And this really erks me. I have stated over and over my engines have had perfect compression and were tuned well. If you want to take a look at the pictures of the cylinder and say that is normal wear then that may be a good direction for the discussion to take.
I have not played with rotary motors at all. But I do know a little about them that make some things vastly different. Intake manifold s are very short. Exhausts get very hot, cylinder walls are completely different, no cams, etc, etc. I have no idea what timing and fuel requirements are for rotaries. For all I know about them is they need to be rich when the throttle is lifted.
I really would be at the point of leaving this discussion if people want to come in and say there is no cleaning affect of alky or water injection. here Is a picture of an intake mani with 15k injected miles and one with 40k no/injection miles. No need to label which is which.
Julio is local to me. I am one of his biggest customers. I just talked with him yesterday and he has no reports of accelerated engine wear. But that doesn't mean its not happening. There are plenty of people jumping in and saying they haven't seen any unusual cylinder wear, yet they have never had their head off. And this really erks me. I have stated over and over my engines have had perfect compression and were tuned well. If you want to take a look at the pictures of the cylinder and say that is normal wear then that may be a good direction for the discussion to take.
I have not played with rotary motors at all. But I do know a little about them that make some things vastly different. Intake manifold s are very short. Exhausts get very hot, cylinder walls are completely different, no cams, etc, etc. I have no idea what timing and fuel requirements are for rotaries. For all I know about them is they need to be rich when the throttle is lifted.
I really would be at the point of leaving this discussion if people want to come in and say there is no cleaning affect of alky or water injection. here Is a picture of an intake mani with 15k injected miles and one with 40k no/injection miles. No need to label which is which.
Last edited by 94AWDcoupe; Feb 21, 2007 at 06:21 AM.
Feb 21, 2007, 06:27 AM
#42
pwm progressive pump speed injection control flow rate by changing pump rotor speed which changes line pressure........ ... ..
low flowrate = low line pressure = low pump speed = large mist size
high flow rate = high line pressure = high pump speed = fine mist size
for every 10% increase in diameter of mist size - mass increases 40%!
light smaller mist = manuvers better thru the maze of intake piping.
low flowrate = low line pressure = low pump speed = large mist size
high flow rate = high line pressure = high pump speed = fine mist size
for every 10% increase in diameter of mist size - mass increases 40%!
light smaller mist = manuvers better thru the maze of intake piping.
Feb 21, 2007, 06:38 AM
#44
If your engine tuned on gas is rich for cylinders 1,3,and 4 then so is your alky injected engine. Spraying one or too jets before the TB does not make the A/F all of sudden equal between cylinders. The problem of unequal distribution gets even worse when you inject alky. Unless of course you are injecting on each runner with four jets, then it would be the same as no injection.
Edit: look at the photo above of the intake. The clean intake is cleanest on no 2 runner. Supporting what I am saying. No 2 gets the most air in a non injected motor. In an injected motor that runner is getting the most cleaning because the air now contains properly atomized alky. More of it on number 2.
At least I learned something today. On a non-injected engine the no 2 always goes lean first. On an injected motor the no 2 becomes the richest.
Last edited by 94AWDcoupe; Feb 21, 2007 at 06:46 AM.
Feb 21, 2007, 06:38 AM
#45
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http://www.hagonozzles.com/documents...M%20&%20MW.pdf
check out the effect of pressure on mist size.
Fuel injectors are optimised for fuel pressures generated by the walbro
check out the effect of pressure on mist size.
Fuel injectors are optimised for fuel pressures generated by the walbro