esevo, do you have any Data Logs showing the air intake temp difference from no water injection, and using water injection? For me, as of now, I am only looking Water/Alcohol injection to increase octane to give me a larger margin of error to knock. I do know water works well in this regard. Its not a huge power gainer, but is effective. I was considering using a duel map set up utilizing a water only map, and a mix map. I am also throwing around ideas of containers and placement. So if you could provide pics of your set up that would be very helpful. I so far am still stock on using my stock windshield washer tank since its decent size and is in a good location for easy fill. I have been tossing around the idea of using the AIS 3 gallon Race tank as well which would meet SCCA's regulations for when I would autox. If water alone would do it for me, then why bother?? Again, for me 300whp on a short track is all I need. Once I can master this much power, I can always bump up to a mix gain 40-50whp and with the gained experience I could manage that power better on the track. For me, its not all about POWER, its about Reliabitly and while I run an aggressive 91 tune now, I would like to have a larger window of error.

 

Actually, Richard referred to Howerton Engineering as the source for the HFS-3 system so I looked there. They have tanks available that range in price from $30-$300 but their 5 gallon tank is $79. The 5 gallon tank includes mounting straps and a cap but requires you to drill and install the outlet fitting and level switch. All things considered I'd say this is actually a very good price. Comparably priced competitor tanks of the same size are around $100. I didn't see anyone offering a gold plated option.

AEM is involved in many different facets of racing and we're very familiar with rules regarding fuel tanks. If you are going to run your vehicle in an arena that requires a specialized fuel system then you would naturally select a system without the standard tank included. All the manufacturers offer them, including AEM. Regardless of the venue, you need a tank and in many applications a larger tank has definite benefits. Ultimately it is up to the customer to decide what they want. Choices are good.

We've designed our system to offer what we think is the best "bang for the buck". Some customers will naturally want to go with a top of the line system and some will throw together a basic on/off system from scrounged up parts. We are aiming for the customer in the middle who is looking for a high quality, high value, and high function system. If that doesn't work for you or your customer base then that's fine.

AEM Performance Electronics has 9 degreed Engineers and 3 Technicians on staff in Los Angeles all working exclusively on product development. When AEM releases something we do so because we think we can add something to the market place. Products like the original PnP EMS, the UEGO controllers and the new water/methanol injection flow gauge are exactly the kind of innovative products that we're known for creating.

I understand you're an Aquamist dealer and without being a paid forum supporter you can't directly promote your business but taking aim on every other system and running them down isn't a winning formula. There is plenty of room for all of us here to have an intelligent discussion regarding the differences between systems without resorting to that.

 

Howerton’s tanks are a great option but still IMO not practical for anyone who wants to be racing in any sanction event. For a street car only it would be my choice as well, given I was running any form of alcohol. The real problem is people’s addiction to alcohol as the injection mixture lol if people understood better about water I think tanks wouldn’t be a issue for anyone at sanction events.

I agree that choices are good, however a very very large percent of people on these forums run a form of alcohol and like to race in sanction events. Trying to use a selling point “having tank options when the competition doesn’t” is pointless when the tanks AEM offers will not do a large majority here any good. I consider it a dig on Aquamist when in reality you’re comparing apples to oranges and saying it is of more value just because of “$75” tank option.

I have used your kits and will reserve my professional opinion about them good and some bad. Price point yes your kits do beat out a lot of competition the rest is like comparing an Accord to a S2000 on a race track IMO. The “parts” golden rule “You get what you pay for”… If I was in your shoes I would be pointing how your kit is the same as the “other” competition kits for a lot cheaper. The HFS-3 still has a FAV which a AEM cant equally compare on any level.

I use many of your products for tuning ect. ect. but in my years of performance experience one company isn’t good at everything and every car. Going that big tends to cause a loss in focus as a company and overall result is the customer gets the brunt because the company starts to only care about profit and “adding more products to the market place”

The fastest most reputable shops (I.E Mynes in Japan.), tend to only branch so far into product development and sales. No pun indented but I’m guessing nitrous kits are a future source of revenue for AEM? I’m sorry, I do like a lot of AEM things but there are something’s that should just be left to the specialized companies, when they aren’t, the whole concept becomes blurred, and seems money is the only goal. E85 is another big money driven industry if it wasn’t subsidized I’m not sure if things wouldn’t be a lot different.

One thing I do know is AEM is good at research lol…

I wasn’t attacking nor taking aim on AEM. Let alone “putting you down” it was a defensive response so I apologies if it came off harsh. Like I said, I recommend and use a lot of your products (filters, uego, true boost ect. ect.) However being a dealer not “yet” a vendor here I will not let little jabs go un-responded to about our kits. If AEM was to start building coilovers I would still argue that a JIC or TEIN or KW is far better than AEM’s simply due to simple experience and wisdom from years of testing. If Aquamist was to build a ECU to compete with the EMS you would laugh as AEM has been doing it for years and years and have the largest customer base for the EMS. Same situation just reversed.

In conclusion AEM’s injection kit is good for what you pay for. But it really should not be compared to Aquamist. I wouldn’t compare Volks to Rota’s either. Both serve their purposes and your right drama should be left out. I think that AEM has a way to go on their kits but at least they are one of the few companies who try to grow and learn. Your kit has gotten a lot better over the years maybe the next one will prove to be a closer comparable.

Respectfully,

Evan Smith

 

Give me time Ill post up pics vids and results I am just a perfectionist when it comes to my Aquamist kit. Ill edit this post later in response to your questions but its 1AM and I have to be up at 7 lol

TTYL

Evan Smith

 

I have really only researched a few companies for a possible future Water/Alcohol injection kit.

On the AEM side, It just is curious to why they use a 150psi pump while everyone else uses a 250psi as standard? I do like how AEM's kit comes standard as a progressive unit as others its an upgrade.

As for fail safes, those all vary but are all similar in comparison. Most use a low voltage output that triggers whatever you hook up to it.

As for Aquamist? I have not really researched them much. Why? They are not a USA company, and parts availabilty has to be had by specialized dealers, that are about at the very least 3 hrs away from my house. I want a company that uses parts that are easily adaptive to the USA market. No odd metric sized fittings and what not that I cant find anywhere but Aquamist. Not to say Aquamist isn't good, I think they are, but I would just feel comfortable to be able to talk to someone here in the USA when I have a product question.

Or if there is a complaint? Going through vendors for complaints or warrranty issues are a joke.

I think from the USA side, we have a few companies. AIS makes a nice kit. Their trunk mount kit is nice how everything is self contained and requires no drilling to mount a pump somewhere, and you have a nice 3 gallon fuel cell standard. Only problem? They show no fail safe options on their website. When I emailed them, they just said, "give us a call and we will explain". So maybe they are available, but why not show them on the site? Makes no sense to me.

Then Labonte Motorsports and Snow which as we all know used to work for Snow and is getting sued by Snow SSSOOOO hence their products look almost identical.

But Snow goes into great detail on the phone and explains things and will back their products no questions ask. Soon as I ask a Q BAM!! they had an answer and I like that. I have not called anyone at Labonte yet.

For me, I would like to have some kind of failsafe. The only thing about snow I don't like is, you have to buy one thing to piggy back another to connect to something that triggers something that kicks in to protect the car. Just seems allot of stuff to hook up. Isn't there something a little more simple?

Cost too is an issure. Not that I am cheap, but I don't track my car often, its mainly a DD so spending $900 on a kit from aquamist, then spend about $600 for an install, then $400 on a tuen I mean damn, your in over $2000. So a simple kit like AEM would work for most people. As would the Snow.

I am here to get opinions, pictures, details so I can make a sound decision on my own. Cause once the kit is in, its in. Im not taking it out. I do like the idea too of using my factory windshield washer tank in the trunk. Its easily accessable, holds about 1.25 gallons and is out of the way. Sure I may have to fill it more often, but if I just fill with water, or windshield washer fluid (-32) its all good, I can easily fill it daily and those 2 things are readily available at any gas station in the USA.

esevo, I would love to see how your system is installed. How you run your liines, and how you mount the pump. Maybe I will find a nice Aquamist kit and get that? I don't know, but I would like to gain as much insight as I can as a consumer before I put my $$$ down on anything. Thank you to all the vendors, and companies for posting. All tis Info is very informitive and will be shared.

 

Please edit your post with paragraphs I cant read it as I get lost lol

As far as AEM's pump pressure is actually smarter than the competition. The pump will last much longer. The pumps life tends to be shorted when pushing more than factory recommended pressure.

Aquamist only does 150-160 psi pumps and has a much better atomization due to jet design.

I have to go work on some stuff but I am working on some vids and logs... 87 octane + 840CC of 100% H20 = WIN! lol

If you want to call me rather than me spending an hour typing I can help just pm me I give you my cell #

Evan Smith

 

looking forward to ur post with 87

 

Good to see folks are checking out the website.

Since we are talking systems and tanks(some mine) a few things for the readership. We offer a free tank with any kit purchase. So yes, Aquamist kits do come with a tank.

We not only offer the tanks and brackets that many people see, we also build quite a few fuel cells for competition use. Every unit is a custom as most sanctioning bodies differ in rules and even interpretation of them from region to region. There are a few pictures and examples on the website, but as each unit is built they always differ and improve. These tanks all have proper vertical wall baffle plates and other features that put them among the top tanks on the market. We even developed baffles for the typical Flambeau tanks making them much more useful in their full capacity.

P.S. We usually only sell the 5 gallon tanks as header tanks to a smaller surge tank as the sloshing of the larger tanks is quite severe.

 

^^^ bingo


Evan Smith

 

I had a 3 gal. cell with baffles made for me by Howerton Engineering. It is also equiped with a roll over check valve. I have not seen my fluid level low light due to sloshing of fluid in the tank since I have installed it. I let it run out of fluid just to make sure it still worked lol... I am extremely happy with it. Well worth the money. I will be posting pics soon. Haven't yet due to heavy work load and a dirty trunk that does the tank no justice.

 

esevo, I edited my last post for you. Hope it makes sense. I understand that Aquamist and AEM use less powerful pumps, but if your using the kit mainly for a cooling affect this should be sufficant, but if your using it as a Fuel would't a higher flow pump be better suited?

You guys have more experience than I, and I know Vendors and all want to sell their products, and I dont mock them for that. I am just gathering information so I can make a good purchase.

To me this is an opportunity for the Vendors to sell their product. So Im all ears.

eseevo 87 tune on water injection? Wow that is something interesting, I don't think I would ever do that, for I am not looking for economy, but for octane boost, cooling and power. But to know you can do it, is amazing. Install Pics Please if you guys have them, on Evo's please.

 

AEM can correct me if I'm wrong, but they use the same(or similar) bypass valve pump from Shurflo that Aquamist used previously.

Just about every other manufacturer now uses the Aquatec pump with adjustable bypass so the pressure can be changed. They are all the essentially the same pump with same power, etc. Aquamist uses the pump set at 160psi running pressure as their system is a constant pressure system.

The other manufacturers ramp the pump speed up and down from essentially 0 - 250psi to achieve a variable amount of spray.

Really the pumps probably have much less to do with the performance of the systems than other parameters and quality of the product.

 

Im still a little confused on this. Forgive me guys and gals. I just have many theories I guess.

Would having a higher psi pump enable the user to flow more fluid? In theory you would think it would. If your pushing fluid for HP as a fuel supplement then wouldnt a higher flow pump be better suited?

As in just a cooling affect of the intake charge alone, a lower psi pump may be better suited?

Im really just throwing ideas around, can anyone give any insight into this? Is there a Boost Activated switch system that can be had (not a progressive set to on/off) with a fail safe option? or as a consumer am I looking at buying a more expensive progressive kit just so I can have a fail safe option?

Thanks again guys....

 

What you are looking at is a few different items.

1) Aquamist kits are different from the others available as it is setup like a fuel injection system. The pump runs at a constant 160psi and a vavle similar to a fuel injector controls the flow. The dynamic range is is 5x more than the other kits. For a 600cc jet, the spray range is about 10x, so it has a span from about 60cc to 600cc.

2) The pump speed systems (AEM, Snow, Labonte, etc.) ramp the speed of the pump up and down to vary the flow. This has advantages as it is a simple system and thus less expensive as well. The key is that the flow through these systems is proportional to pressure. For example, if you have a 600cc jet, and that is measured at 240psi, then at 60psi it will be spraying 300cc. Below 60psi, the jet will be spraying closer to a stream rather than a finely atomized spray. It takes 4x the pressure change to get 2x the flow. These pump speed systems require the largest pressure change possible to try to attain a good dynamic range.

There has been volumes written about this, try looking into some of the stickies at the top of this forum. This is not to say one system is better than another, each is built on different principles and a geared towards different users and requirements.

As for a a simple boost triggered system with failsafe, you will need to define what you want in a failsafe. Flow based, automatically acting, etc? I cannot speak to the other vendors kits here, but we can configure the Aquamist systems for these requirements. I do not think this is what you are looking for based on your question, maybe the other vendors can elaborate on their kits and capabilities.

 

EDIT: My question had already been answered in post #13 of this thread.