Clearing Up Misinformation Regarding the St. Louis Dyno Day
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Originally posted by Sano
did we ever figure out what was wrong with the guys car that was putting down 214whp, seemed like he was running rich or somthing else I never heard. he got the p2, had an intake, and some exhaust. there must have been somthing wrong.
I never meant for it to come out that I did better than everyone, there were plenty of people that put down more me. I believe 5 or so maybe more, I was impressed that with my one part I was putting down 242 consistantly. I saw the guy with the new black evo put down I believe 238 with the p2 and the exhale pipe. He was one of the only people I saw with no other mods other than just works stuff.
Everyone seemed pretty happy with their p2, other than the guy that kept putting down 214. I hope he got what was wrong taken care of. I just chose a different path which I think feel is better for me.
As an average of what was there my car I feel did very well for the one mod I was toteing. David from works was cool even though I was useing a competitors part.
either way I am very pleased, and I hope everyone else was.
did we ever figure out what was wrong with the guys car that was putting down 214whp, seemed like he was running rich or somthing else I never heard. he got the p2, had an intake, and some exhaust. there must have been somthing wrong.
I never meant for it to come out that I did better than everyone, there were plenty of people that put down more me. I believe 5 or so maybe more, I was impressed that with my one part I was putting down 242 consistantly. I saw the guy with the new black evo put down I believe 238 with the p2 and the exhale pipe. He was one of the only people I saw with no other mods other than just works stuff.
Everyone seemed pretty happy with their p2, other than the guy that kept putting down 214. I hope he got what was wrong taken care of. I just chose a different path which I think feel is better for me.
As an average of what was there my car I feel did very well for the one mod I was toteing. David from works was cool even though I was useing a competitors part.
either way I am very pleased, and I hope everyone else was.
As far as the board member who had issues with his car, he eventually got bumped up to about 224 whp, as I recall (also, he was the lone Evo running 91 octane that day). It is unfortunate that we do not have a "before" plot on his car as I'm sure that would have shed some light on what was going on. FWIW, he PM'd me to let me know that he put his stock air intake back on and reported that the car felt noticeably stronger after, so he may have found the culprit to his problem there.
Anyway, I have to say again that this whole event for me was about getting to meet new faces and have everyone spend some quality time together and I think we achieved that goal very well. The overall vibe was very good, and everyone was helping each other out and cheering each other on. If this is the spirit that we can expect from dyno days, it is almost certain that I will try to make it out on the road for more of these types of events in the future.
-- DavidV
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Re: Clearing Up Misinformation Regarding the St. Louis Dyno Day
Originally posted by DavidV@WORKS
I am very happy for Sano that his car did as well as it did on the dyno (242 whp) Eespecially after paying in excess of $895 and waiting 2 months to get his Xede. That said, a P2 car with a catback (not turbo-back) and intake put down 254 whp on the same day on the same dyno. A bone stock Evo with the P2 put down 237 whp.
(1) The Xede did not make twice the HP of our P2. As mentioned above, boomn29 came out at 237 whp with just the P2 (compared to 242 whp for Shivs custom tuned car with knock correction adjusted). This is a total difference of 5 whp.
(3) The Xede had a lower rev limit by at least 200 useable rpm, than any of the P2 Brain Flashes.
(4) The Xede required extensive consultation and dyno time to tune (with Shiv on the phone). The P2, as advertised, was plug-and-play.
I am very happy for Sano that his car did as well as it did on the dyno (242 whp) Eespecially after paying in excess of $895 and waiting 2 months to get his Xede. That said, a P2 car with a catback (not turbo-back) and intake put down 254 whp on the same day on the same dyno. A bone stock Evo with the P2 put down 237 whp.
(1) The Xede did not make twice the HP of our P2. As mentioned above, boomn29 came out at 237 whp with just the P2 (compared to 242 whp for Shivs custom tuned car with knock correction adjusted). This is a total difference of 5 whp.
(3) The Xede had a lower rev limit by at least 200 useable rpm, than any of the P2 Brain Flashes.
(4) The Xede required extensive consultation and dyno time to tune (with Shiv on the phone). The P2, as advertised, was plug-and-play.
To answer some of your misinformation:
Sano actually put down 246 whp on his very first dyno pull with NO TUNING whatsoever according to Ron @ Axis. He then proceeded to adjust the XEDE (first time using the software) for another 10 minutes to ensure consistency from run to run for the customer. He mentioned that it was difficult to improve on the base map that was loaded in the XEDE. Is that your definition of extensive tuning and help from Shiv? Were you not on the phone yourself back to "headquarters" looking for tuning guidance for cars that were making less than 220 WHP after your P2 flash? Does that not constitute custom tuning by you?
How does an extra 200RPM help you if your car is making peak power at 6100RPM? It is obviously usefull if you are running a bigger turbo and supporting mods, but less usefull on a stock turboed car.
One of the P2 flashed cars made 214 WHP after the flash, for a gain of around 10 WHP at this dyno day. Our XEDE made 35 WHP over stock which would be over double what your P2 made. That is not misinformation, just the facts. Another car apparently made 222 WHP after your P2 flash as well. That is still about half the gain that our XEDE made on Sano's car. As reported by Shiv we typically gain around 10-15 WHP over a reflash because of our ability to chage parameters that the flash cannot. Plain and simple. If the base map is not giving optimal performance then you can simply upload another map, or tweak the map yourself. That's the beauty of the XEDE.
Sounds like everyone had a great time at Axis Power. How did you like using the Dyno Dynamics Dyno David? Although the numbers are a little lower than most people are used to seeing I think it is hands down the easiest and most consistent tuning tool available.
Brett Payne
Vishnu Performance.
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Re: Re: Clearing Up Misinformation Regarding the St. Louis Dyno Day
Originally posted by DSMBRETT
To answer some of your misinformation:
Sano actually put down 246 whp on his very first dyno pull with NO TUNING whatsoever according to Ron @ Axis. He then proceeded to adjust the XEDE (first time using the software) for another 10 minutes to ensure consistency from run to run for the customer. He mentioned that it was difficult to improve on the base map that was loaded in the XEDE. Is that your definition of extensive tuning and help from Shiv? Were you not on the phone yourself back to "headquarters" looking for tuning guidance for cars that were making less than 220 WHP after your P2 flash? Does that not constitute custom tuning by you?
How does an extra 200RPM help you if your car is making peak power at 6100RPM? It is obviously useful if you are running a bigger turbo and supporting mods, but less useful on a stock turboed car.
One of the P2 flashed cars made 214 WHP after the flash, for a gain of around 10 WHP at this dyno day. Our XEDE made 35 WHP over stock which would be over double what your P2 made. That is not misinformation, just the facts. Another car apparently made 222 WHP after your P2 flash as well. That is still about half the gain that our XEDE made on Sano's car. As reported by Shiv we typically gain around 10-15 WHP over a reflash because of our ability to chage parameters that the flash cannot. Plain and simple. If the base map is not giving optimal performance then you can simply upload another map, or tweak the map yourself. That's the beauty of the XEDE.
Sounds like everyone had a great time at Axis Power. How did you like using the Dyno Dynamics Dyno David? Although the numbers are a little lower than most people are used to seeing I think it is hands down the easiest and most consistent tuning tool available.
Brett Payne
Vishnu Performance.
To answer some of your misinformation:
Sano actually put down 246 whp on his very first dyno pull with NO TUNING whatsoever according to Ron @ Axis. He then proceeded to adjust the XEDE (first time using the software) for another 10 minutes to ensure consistency from run to run for the customer. He mentioned that it was difficult to improve on the base map that was loaded in the XEDE. Is that your definition of extensive tuning and help from Shiv? Were you not on the phone yourself back to "headquarters" looking for tuning guidance for cars that were making less than 220 WHP after your P2 flash? Does that not constitute custom tuning by you?
How does an extra 200RPM help you if your car is making peak power at 6100RPM? It is obviously useful if you are running a bigger turbo and supporting mods, but less useful on a stock turboed car.
One of the P2 flashed cars made 214 WHP after the flash, for a gain of around 10 WHP at this dyno day. Our XEDE made 35 WHP over stock which would be over double what your P2 made. That is not misinformation, just the facts. Another car apparently made 222 WHP after your P2 flash as well. That is still about half the gain that our XEDE made on Sano's car. As reported by Shiv we typically gain around 10-15 WHP over a reflash because of our ability to chage parameters that the flash cannot. Plain and simple. If the base map is not giving optimal performance then you can simply upload another map, or tweak the map yourself. That's the beauty of the XEDE.
Sounds like everyone had a great time at Axis Power. How did you like using the Dyno Dynamics Dyno David? Although the numbers are a little lower than most people are used to seeing I think it is hands down the easiest and most consistent tuning tool available.
Brett Payne
Vishnu Performance.
I do not wish to get into an extended dialogue on this as I feel it takes away from the spirit of the event. Let me just set the record straight on a couple items since I was there and you, obviously, were not:
(1) The car that put down 214 whp (on 91 octane), was the same car that later made 222 whp. That car had underlying mechanical issues since the identical fuel map on his car registered much richer than any of the numerous other cars I flashed that day. The reason we spent some extra time with this customer was to see how his car reacted to the same maps used on cars earlier in the day. Needless to say, if one wanted to draw comparisons, there were at least 7 other P2 cars for to draw from. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you picked this car to tout the virtues of the Xede.
(2) I do not know how to tune cars. Never did. Probably never will. My job is merely ringmaster. I coordinate the event, set everything up, and on the technical side, all that is asked of me is to hit the button that uploads the file. I can assure you that no custom tuning was done. While I consulted with headquarters throughout the day to help keep them in the loop back home as to what we were seeing on the dyno, what I was having for lunch, how the weather was turning out and to help trouble-shoot the one car that was running so rich, I did zero tuning the entire day. If you have not already done so, please have a look at the new article that was posted on the WORKS website. This explains in depth why we do not believe in, nor use, the "custom tune" approach.
(3) As for the 200 extra rpm, as I'm sure you're aware, holding the power in gear longer means that an upshift occurs that much later. So, for example, while car X is still accelerating in 3rd gear, car Y had to shift into 4th and so on and so forth. The fact that the Brain Flash equipped car continues making solid, useable power higher in the rev band is just an added plus to our customers in real world driving conditions, both on the street and at the track.
(4) I for one hope you're right about Sano's car only being on the dyno for 10 minutes since I was on the cell phone that entire time. I'd rather not go over my minutes this month and it seemed a whole lot longer to me.
Now, I will conceded that the Dyno Dynamics was a pleasure to see in action (not that I did any actual tuning on it) and that Ron was a great guy, and that everyone had fun.
Let's enjoy the fact that everyone came out happy and not try to make a pissing match out of something that was anything but.
-- DavidV
Last edited by DavidV@WORKS; Nov 3, 2003 at 05:05 PM.