Clearing Up Misinformation Regarding the St. Louis Dyno Day
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Clearing Up Misinformation Regarding the St. Louis Dyno Day
I feel compelled to address some misinformation that has been posted in the wake of the WORKS Dyno Day in St. Louis -- not surprisingly, posted by several parties who were not there.
However, let me restate: This dyno day was a way for us to do our part to build a sense of Evo community. We had 16 EVOs turn out despite the bad weather and the fact that the meet was being held the morning after Halloween. People drove 7+ hours to enjoy each others' company and get to know what WORKS was all about.
Onto the comments I have read in the past 24 hours:
Posted by IE Evo : “It appears that the P2 didn't kick *** on the Dyno. Sounds to me like under 30 hp with the Exhale,throttle body,and P2.”
Incorrect. There were no cars dynoed in St. Louis with all three of the products described above.
posted by Sano “I was putting down more power than cars with the p2 + other mods such as t-back exhaust, air intakes and others.E
I am very happy for Sano that his car did as well as it did on the dyno (242 whp) Eespecially after paying in excess of $895 and waiting 2 months to get his Xede. That said, a P2 car with a catback (not turbo-back) and intake put down 254 whp on the same day on the same dyno. A bone stock Evo with the P2 put down 237 whp.
posted by Shiv “i was saying that the XEDE will offer user-tunability and the potential for making more power than the (or any, IMHO) reflash. It adds additional knock control logic which is more appropriate for higher output applications. Applications where the factory knock control system is either too sensitive or not sensitive enough at different engine speed/load combinations. I suspect thisd is why it provided nearly twice the gains as the dozen or so custom tuned reflashes that were present at the St. Louis dyno day.E
(1) There were no custom tuned reflashed in St. Louis.
(2) The Xede did not make twice the HP of our P2. As mentioned above, boomn29 came out at 237 whp with just the P2 (compared to 242 whp for Shiv’s custom tuned car with knock correction adjusted). This is a total difference of 5 whp.
(3) The Xede had a lower rev limit by at least 200 useable rpm, than any of the P2 Brain Flashes.
(4) The Xede required extensive consultation and dyno time to tune (with Shiv on the phone). The P2, as advertised, was plug-and-play.
Posted by Alfriedesq: “Agreed that the Exede will have the potential to make more HP than any reflash for two reasons - ONE - you can turn up the boost on the exede - but you can only prevent taper on the reflash (thats why we recomend you get a EBC or MBC with the reflash to control the boost at a higher point - I love the hks evc v - Two - the knock sesnor adjustment feature on the Exede which helps you make a more agressive tune without haveing the factory ecu pull timing.”
The WORKS Brain Flash is capable of raising and holding boost well beyond the factory peak as well as adjusting the factory knock detection. We have total control over ALL of the EVO engine parameters. We choose not to "modify" the factory knock control thresholds as this may lead to very serious consequential engine damage. It would be foolish of us to question a team of Mitsubishi engineers with unlimited R&D who defined those specific parameters. Especially for a very sensitive Safety Control Device. We do not believe it is in the best interest of our customers (or for us) to do so. Certainly the added risk is not worth a 5 whp increase over the P2 (see above).
Further, the Brain Flash, unlike the Xede or any other piggyback, is capable of raising the factory rev limit. It strikes me as disengenuous to characterize, as has occurred here on the board, a conservative 200 rpm rev increase as dangerous, while desensitizing the knock detection, either in whole or in part, and calling that "safe."
Posted by Alfriedesq: [Various comments regarding the Brain Flash’s allegedly “leanEand “unsafeEairfuel ratios]
Please refrain from commenting on this subject until the scanned charts go up from St. Louis. We are very proud of our air/fuel ratios and are confident that once these are posted, the these allegations will come to an abrupt end.
Lastly, none of the above should be interpreted as an invitation for vendors to debate the merits of ours, or their own products, here on the WORKS forum.
-- DavidV
However, let me restate: This dyno day was a way for us to do our part to build a sense of Evo community. We had 16 EVOs turn out despite the bad weather and the fact that the meet was being held the morning after Halloween. People drove 7+ hours to enjoy each others' company and get to know what WORKS was all about.
Onto the comments I have read in the past 24 hours:
Posted by IE Evo : “It appears that the P2 didn't kick *** on the Dyno. Sounds to me like under 30 hp with the Exhale,throttle body,and P2.”
Incorrect. There were no cars dynoed in St. Louis with all three of the products described above.
posted by Sano “I was putting down more power than cars with the p2 + other mods such as t-back exhaust, air intakes and others.E
I am very happy for Sano that his car did as well as it did on the dyno (242 whp) Eespecially after paying in excess of $895 and waiting 2 months to get his Xede. That said, a P2 car with a catback (not turbo-back) and intake put down 254 whp on the same day on the same dyno. A bone stock Evo with the P2 put down 237 whp.
posted by Shiv “i was saying that the XEDE will offer user-tunability and the potential for making more power than the (or any, IMHO) reflash. It adds additional knock control logic which is more appropriate for higher output applications. Applications where the factory knock control system is either too sensitive or not sensitive enough at different engine speed/load combinations. I suspect thisd is why it provided nearly twice the gains as the dozen or so custom tuned reflashes that were present at the St. Louis dyno day.E
(1) There were no custom tuned reflashed in St. Louis.
(2) The Xede did not make twice the HP of our P2. As mentioned above, boomn29 came out at 237 whp with just the P2 (compared to 242 whp for Shiv’s custom tuned car with knock correction adjusted). This is a total difference of 5 whp.
(3) The Xede had a lower rev limit by at least 200 useable rpm, than any of the P2 Brain Flashes.
(4) The Xede required extensive consultation and dyno time to tune (with Shiv on the phone). The P2, as advertised, was plug-and-play.
Posted by Alfriedesq: “Agreed that the Exede will have the potential to make more HP than any reflash for two reasons - ONE - you can turn up the boost on the exede - but you can only prevent taper on the reflash (thats why we recomend you get a EBC or MBC with the reflash to control the boost at a higher point - I love the hks evc v - Two - the knock sesnor adjustment feature on the Exede which helps you make a more agressive tune without haveing the factory ecu pull timing.”
The WORKS Brain Flash is capable of raising and holding boost well beyond the factory peak as well as adjusting the factory knock detection. We have total control over ALL of the EVO engine parameters. We choose not to "modify" the factory knock control thresholds as this may lead to very serious consequential engine damage. It would be foolish of us to question a team of Mitsubishi engineers with unlimited R&D who defined those specific parameters. Especially for a very sensitive Safety Control Device. We do not believe it is in the best interest of our customers (or for us) to do so. Certainly the added risk is not worth a 5 whp increase over the P2 (see above).
Further, the Brain Flash, unlike the Xede or any other piggyback, is capable of raising the factory rev limit. It strikes me as disengenuous to characterize, as has occurred here on the board, a conservative 200 rpm rev increase as dangerous, while desensitizing the knock detection, either in whole or in part, and calling that "safe."
Posted by Alfriedesq: [Various comments regarding the Brain Flash’s allegedly “leanEand “unsafeEairfuel ratios]
Please refrain from commenting on this subject until the scanned charts go up from St. Louis. We are very proud of our air/fuel ratios and are confident that once these are posted, the these allegations will come to an abrupt end.
Lastly, none of the above should be interpreted as an invitation for vendors to debate the merits of ours, or their own products, here on the WORKS forum.
-- DavidV
Last edited by DavidV@WORKS; Nov 3, 2003 at 01:54 PM.
Maybe your post above would have been better placed in a "neutral forum" where other vendors could quote what you've said, debate, etc. so that current customers can feel satisfied with their investment and potential customers could come to a rational decision on what to purchase based upon the facts brought forth by a civil and technical discourse.
Hmm.. would it be okay for customers, current or potential, to debate the merits of any other vendors products and compare them to Works? Customers have nothing to gain, obviously, except for the sharing of knowledge. Afterall, we don't make money off of the Evo aftermarket.
"Lastly, none of the above should be interpreted as an invitation for vendors to debate the merits of ours, or their own products, here on the WORKS forum."
Last edited by jansolo; Nov 3, 2003 at 12:24 PM.
Originally posted by jansolo
Maybe your post above would have been better placed in a "neutral forum" where other vendors could quote what you've said, debate, etc. so that current customers can feel satisfied with their investment and potential customers could come to a rational decision on what to purchase based upon the facts brought forth by a civil and technical discourse.
Hmm.. would it be okay for customers, current or potential, to debate the merits of any other vendors products and compare them to Works? Customers have nothing to gain, obviously, except for the sharing of knowledge. Afterall, we don't make money off the Evo aftermarket.
Maybe your post above would have been better placed in a "neutral forum" where other vendors could quote what you've said, debate, etc. so that current customers can feel satisfied with their investment and potential customers could come to a rational decision on what to purchase based upon the facts brought forth by a civil and technical discourse.
Hmm.. would it be okay for customers, current or potential, to debate the merits of any other vendors products and compare them to Works? Customers have nothing to gain, obviously, except for the sharing of knowledge. Afterall, we don't make money off the Evo aftermarket.
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I'm always interested in what our customers or potential customers have to say -- both good and bad. That is how we learn as a company and how we can best improve our product offerings. On the other hand, I am less interested (in fact, disinclined) to open up our forums to vendor debate.
-- DavidV
-- DavidV
I'll probably end up posting these somewhere else as well. I finally quit trying to get my scanner to work and just took pictures. Here you go! Mods are in my sig. Baseline is in blue/green, after P2 is in red.
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Originally posted by jfe
dan,
did you also have your rev limit increased or is that the stock setting?
jfe
dan,
did you also have your rev limit increased or is that the stock setting?
jfe
-- DavidV
,
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From: MO
did we ever figure out what was wrong with the guys car that was putting down 214whp, seemed like he was running rich or somthing else I never heard. he got the p2, had an intake, and some exhaust. there must have been somthing wrong.
I never meant for it to come out that I did better than everyone, there were plenty of people that put down more me. I believe 5 or so maybe more, I was impressed that with my one part I was putting down 242 consistantly. I saw the guy with the new black evo put down I believe 238 with the p2 and the exhale pipe. He was one of the only people I saw with no other mods other than just works stuff.
Everyone seemed pretty happy with their p2, other than the guy that kept putting down 214. I hope he got what was wrong taken care of. I just chose a different path which I think feel is better for me.
As an average of what was there my car I feel did very well for the one mod I was toteing. David from works was cool even though I was useing a competitors part.
either way I am very pleased, and I hope everyone else was.
I never meant for it to come out that I did better than everyone, there were plenty of people that put down more me. I believe 5 or so maybe more, I was impressed that with my one part I was putting down 242 consistantly. I saw the guy with the new black evo put down I believe 238 with the p2 and the exhale pipe. He was one of the only people I saw with no other mods other than just works stuff.
Everyone seemed pretty happy with their p2, other than the guy that kept putting down 214. I hope he got what was wrong taken care of. I just chose a different path which I think feel is better for me.
As an average of what was there my car I feel did very well for the one mod I was toteing. David from works was cool even though I was useing a competitors part.
either way I am very pleased, and I hope everyone else was.