Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Hi everyone, I posted this over in the Enging, Turbo, Drivetrain, but not much help. Here it goes.

Here is my issue. Been working with Throttle Body's for the last week or two. Get both Throttle BOdy's dialed in and adjusted manually prior to throwing the BISS actuator. Most of the time, I was able to activate the actuator, and RPM's would not move, maybe 100 RPM's, but virtually not at all. This suggest that the BISS screw is set properly.

I can then drive the car fine, on either Throttle Body. I can shut it off right after setting it, and restart, no issues. Then if I drive it for a while, to check it out, and see if things are ok, idle, drive, stopping, etc. THings go fine. Shut it off for 20 minutes, try to restart, and the car struggles to get to 750 RPM's and struggles for a while to catch the IDLE that was just set and worked great. Throw the Actuator again, and it kills the car. SOmetimes I can get it hold 500 RPM's but that is hard on the car.

THis issue started out of the blue, made adjustments to my stock TB to get it where it should, threw the actuator several times like I said with no serious drop down. When the issue first arose, it would drop the car to 600 RPM's. Then after about 3-4 minutes, car would idle up like it should and RPM's were where they were set. Deactivate the actuator, and the RPM's would raise maybe 100 or so. Throw it again, and everything would be stable. Next day, car would start fine, drive it around after warming it up, get it good and hot, check the idle again by throwing the actuator, and it would drop down again. Check things out, deactivate the actuator, and car would idle up. Give it a while, throw the actuator again, and no issue.

Now, I have rebuilt my stock TB, and tried my aftermarket TB. GEt both dialed in again, and no matter what I do during setup and adjustment, actuator acts fine, and adjustments look good in logs. Drive it at all, and then check the actuator again, and idle drops to 600 rpm's on the stock, and damn near kills the aftermarket.

This issue seems to be progressively getting worse. No additional adjustments made to TB and it does this drop. I have changed IAC, TPS, etc. Verified all the usual settings. No vacuum leaks, and Fuel Trims are in check.

I am thinking some kind of relay or short somewhere, but have no idea where to look.
I have verified all grounds are good.

WOrthy of note, car idled fine for a week or two, and the actuator was tested with no issues. This sudden issue when I throw it now in the last week or so, has progressively gotten worse.

Update: 6/12/16

Yes, and swapped it to the new one on both as well. Same results.

I cleaned all parts that are not sensors, with Carb Cleaner. Did I screw up? The Black stuff on the back of the plate was cleaned, but not scraped away, just cleaned any exhaust stain off.

We are good to go, didnt touch that stuff. Just the duct work throughout the TB, and the Inlet side of the TB.

Has anyone ever had weird issues like this and come to find there alternator and/or voltage regulator is taking a dive. I got creative after hours of testing and adjusting to no end, with low RPM's actuator active or not. I finally unplugged the alternator, and rpms rose to the 900 or so they should be at roughly. Plug alternator back in and it almost kills the car in actuator mode or regular. Logs show voltage of battery between 13.6 and 14.4V. SO I would have never had an idea that my alternator might be going out. Also, it is a 160 amp that are impossible to find anymore. I'v been told by very reputable sources that this can lead to all sorts of issues.

Remember, I have had these three issues, repeatedly since I brought my car back from the dead after the last 4 years of rebuild.

Starting: Every warm start was more than just warm start issues discussed here. The car would start, idle up slowly to 1000 rpms, and then AFR gauge would go completely lean, and would stay like this for a random amount of time, sounding like it was struggling to idle like that, never was the same, either way, after this it would just come to life, idle up like it was going through warm up mode, and then settle back down and sound completely fine.

Every now and again, would throw the Biss Actuator to check idle settings if I had made adjustments in the rom, and it would low idle, even though I had set the BISS to 900. It would idle rough at 600 RPM's for easly 3-4 minutes, and then out of nowhere, come to life, idle up, and then settle back down to the 900 that I had set.

During my testing of both throttle bodies yesterday, it ran like crap, would dip down in actuator mode, and no adjustment woud change anything. Then randomly out of the blue, car comes alive, and allows me to tune both TB's after 20-30 minutes of it idling kind of crappy. During this time if I threw the BISS, it would idle down to 500 rpms or die. Again no adjustment would let me save it.

Also, during this crappy period, with trying every adjustment to BISS, car may have ran at 900-1000 rpms, but sounded like it was bogged down or sputtering like voltage or coils were not firing right, or not enough charge.

Once I did finally get it adjusted like I said, drove it around for atleast 2 hours with various idle times. Shut car off after being super warm, let sit for 30 minutes maybe, and were back to crappy idle, struggle to start, struggle to run, throw actuator and it almost dies, etc.

Today, after 8 hours of playing with both TB's, car will not idle correct at all. Won't let me activate the actuator with out dying, no adjustments can be made to save it or get it to idle. It runs like I just described, sputtering, struggling to maintain 900 rpm's if it gets there, sound like its very low on voltage to the coils, there getting extremely hot, all around just crappy.

Got creative, after looking under every bolt in the engine bay... unplugged the alternator, car idled up, was only running on 12v but idled. Logs showed the alternator was still charging even though I unplugged the wire harness to what I believe is the regulator in the Alt. And it would even let me throw the actuator. Plug alternator back in, and car plunges to no recovery or very low RPM's.

What am I looking at here?

Update: 6/13/16

So what is actually going on when the actuator is pushed? I know it drops the ISC steps or freezes them. But what else is the ECU actually doing to the car. Might help in troubleshooting.

Spent all day, literally, on the car, sun up to sundown.

Worthy of note: When I first tried to start the car today, while ignition was on, but not started, the CEL flashed rapidly. Car started, but would not rev past 3K. I only started it to put it back in position to work on it. SHut it off an went about my testing for the day. When I started it later, no issues like I just described.

Went through the entire EGR System. Checked Valve, cleaned, tested. Checked Solenoid, tested. Went through all hoses, tested, zip tied. No Change.

Replaced MAP sensor with new Omni 4 Bar. No change.

Rechecked IAC connector and IAC motor. Connector tested 12v at 3 locations on the plug, this while car running, unplugged from IAC.

Started on electrical checking. Checked every earth ground in the engine bay, and in the cabin.
Checked engine coils while running, signal or input tested at 12v or running voltage.

Fuel pump issue: Tested with key on, not started, voltage tested at 5.85 V. Started car, fuel pump circuit tests at 7.9V. Started checking fuel electrical system.
Ignition 20 amp fuse in fuse panel under hood, good. Only supplies 12v when car is cranking, not when car is in on position, not started.
Checked Relay 3, while car is in on position, not started and while running, it is only getting 6V.
Fuel Pump fuse under dash, 7.5 amp fuse, tested good.
Checked Relays 1 and 2 under dash. Both terminals tested while in on position not started at .04V. Both relays tested at 126 ohms from copper colored leads. Silver leads were dead. Looking at how they plug in, that looks to be terminals 2 and 4.
Tried switching the 2 fuel pump relays around robin with the IC sprayer relay that sits between them, they are all the same relay. No change. Side Note: I have not heard these relays switching like I used to while driving. I haven’t heard them in the last couple of weeks. I can usually hear the switching when cruising on the highway to check cruise trims.
I can get these 2 relays tomorrow at the parts store to check and see if they are actually good.

Checked all connections to this fuse panel, all plugs look tight.

Checked ECM under glove box passenger side, all connections solid. Forgot to test the pin out for the FR Alternator signal voltage. What should voltage be?

I can also get an ignition for in the steering column tomorrow. Was thinking that may be an issue also.

Here is the Data for logs after idling for ever. It struggled to get there, but idled at 950 ish. Doesn't sound like it used to at idle, kind of muffled, and seems off.

This good data info. My log is a mile long.

RPMs - at start, Slow to rise from 400 RPM's struggles for about 1-2 minutes, gets to 950 RPM's.
AFR 14.5 to 15.5 if it swings wildly. But mostly it around 14.7 to 15.2.
When I throw actuator, it slowly richens to the point of almost dying, or saves itself and runs around 13.5 to 14.4.
Load is at 35 roughly
Airflow hover at 40 HZ +/- 2HZ
LTFT low is +/- 2%
LTFT mis is +/- 3%
O2 Feedback right after starting is +11. Once it gets settled with the rise of RPM's it's in check with +/- 2%.
ISC Steps want to hang around 65 +, but the few times the car comes alive and actually lets me set the idle and BISS screw, I set it for 15 at the lowest. That day I was talking about, where I was able to drive it for a couple of hours, logs showed steps running 12 to 30 varying around of course depending on demand. Now no matter what I do, the lowest they go is 55.
IPW is 1.536 to 1.792
Injector Duty Cycle is 1.28 to 1.44
Battery, 14.1 cold start, 13.8 +/-.3v while running for a period of time.
Dwell hovers around 3.584

This does look good, but you should hear the car.

Update: 6/14/16 Morning
Made some progress. Purchased new Relays for Fuel Pump both 1 and 2 for under dash.

New relays, no difference.

Changed fuse under dash per recommendation from reliable source, 7.5 amp fuse to 15 amp fuse.
Tested fuse position, got 12v.
Tested relay 1 with key on, 12v.
Tested Relay 2 with Key on, 12v.
Tested fuel pump with ignition on, no crank, got these wires:
White wire to ground, no voltage.
Big Black wire to ground, no voltage.
White wire to big black wire, no voltage.
Little black wire 1 to ground, no voltage.
Little black wire 2 to ground, no voltage.
White wire to little black wire 1, 5v.
White wire to little black wire 2, no volts.

Tested fuel pump during cranking:
White wire to ground, 12v
White wire to Big Black wire, 12V

Tested fuel pump right after cranking while in high-speed mode, voltage tested at these volts for 1.5 sec. Note: This is what you have set in the rom:
White wire to ground, 12v
White wire to Big Black wire, 12V

Tested fuel pump right after highs-speed mode, voltage dropped quickly to 8.2v.

Tested fuel pump after 10 min of running. Voltage maintaining 8.1V.

Went through and double checked ohms and voltage of vacuum solenoids for Purge, FPR, and EGR. All tested within 30 ohms.

After all this, I pulled the Trims fuse for fuel, ISCV, and anything else. Let car sit for a bit. Took this opportunity to un-preload the BOV which I did about 2 weeks ago, and I pulled spark plugs. Found something interesting there. Cylinder 1 and 2 looked brownish black, a little buildup, but nothing extreme, looked like they should. Cylinder 3 and 4 were interesting. Those spark plugs were still white at the tip, with a very small 2mm skunk stripe of brown down the tip. Metal threads were still silver. Ground piece attached to threads that completes the ark, still silver… Unfortunately I am not sure what this means. At first I thought I had a dead coil, but 3 and 4 are not controlled by the same coil. 2 and 3 are controlled by a coil, and 1 and 4 are controlled by a coil, so I am at a loss. Either way, changed spark plugs to IW24 Denso’s. Put my stock coils back on. Put trim fuse back in. Pulled the IAC plug and left it hanging. Started car, to run it through it’s learning phase of injector cycles, and step cycles. Logged it. Started up with a little bit of low idle, but quickly picked up. Then it idled pretty good. About 10 minutes in, ECU started telling the Steps to drop, and I could watch it in the log, thought the IAC was unplugged. I let it get all the way to 7, and plugged the IAC back in. Mind you, no actuator was thrown. Logs showed the car was idling like it should, with steps raising to 12, then back down to 11, then 10, then 8, then 7, stayed at 7 for a few, then rose back to 10, then 11, then hovered at 10-11. Stayed that ways for about 5 minutes till I shut it off. Swapped coil’s on the motor, and went to restart, and car ran poopy again. Steps in log in the high 70’s, would only come down to 65 or so, and then rise back up. Not sure if it is the coils, or my phantom issue resurfaced again.

Update 6/14/16 Evening

So the stock coils actually don’t change anything, it runs the same. I am able to however get it to run like it should, with IAC steps logging like they should, repeatable 3 times now. However, so far, when I shut off the car, it goes back to crap. This is with either coils, and either TB.

If I pull the 20 amp fuse that resets all the learn data, and leave it out for a good 10-20 minutes, as well as disconnect the IAC for the same amount of time, I get these results.

Plug in the 20 amp fuse and leave IAC unplugged. Start car, and let it idle. I watch the steps in the log start around 80 and climb to 100 in the first 5 minutes. In the second five minutes, the steps decrease between 20 or 30 down to 70, then climb back up for that period of time. After about 10 minutes of idling with the IAC unplugged still, the ECU starts dropping steps fast. The car actually idles up to about 1300 RPMS, and slowly tapers down along with the steps. In the next 5 minutes, the steps drop to about 15 and hover in the ECU, and logs. They will climb 2-3 steps, and drop 2-3 steps sticking around 15 steps. This suggest BISS on both TB’s is set correctly, cause I haven’t changed them throughout the testing phase since I was first able to get it to run stable the other day. At this point I plug the IAC in. In the logs, you can see it, steps will rise a little, then drop back down and hang around 15 again. I can idle for any amount of time and they seem to stay there.

I logged this entire process, it is the log named idle.

I then drove around town at slow speed for a while, and watch the steps, they climbed a little, but dropped right back down to the set amount when I stopped at stop lights, or pulled over to check idle.

I also drove on the freeway for a cruise, and logged them as well. Same thing, steps seem to be in check. Log named cruise.

I then drove home, and unfortunately had to shut off the car. So won’t know if the settings stayed till the morning.

I did however notice something else. Don’t know if my evoscan formula for the IDLE Position Switch is correct, took it off the forum, but again not sure. Either way, this switch did not seem to represent IDLE. It was on when cruising at 80 miles an hour. It was off when sitting at a light in town. It would randomly change, and not act like it should. Poses a question. If Evoscan is correct, then the car doesn’t know when it is in idle… What is the mechanical switch that this data item is reading. Is that something that could represent why the car is acting crazy?

I have recollection of seeing this switch at 0 most of the time at idle over the last week. From my understanding it should be at 1 while at idle.

If it is directly related to the TPS, then settings for Stock TB are at 11.5, and for Skunk2 TB are at 13.3. I read that as long as it is below 15 we are good….

Update 6/15/16 Morning

Started car this morning, ran like crap, but Steps were on point. MAF air temp was 15 C, Coolant temp was 18 C, and EGR Temp was 232 C, this is right after cranking. Car started horribly. It has already been tune for cold starts too, and cold started prior to this issue. Either way, car idled like crap, and warmed up, but still had issues. Driving to the shop to get a couple things taken care of, and it stalled at every light. Good news is the ECU remembered step positions, and was running the proper steps all the way their. Pulled into the parking lot, and it idled at 15 steps, but very rough. With in a matter of 5 minutes, the ECU jumped it back up to 70 steps, and it stayed like that while we let it idle for 20 minutes, never coming back down. So I believe I eliminated a problem with the ecu in regards to sending step information to IAC, and that a fresh ignition was not resetting the learned data.

I have attached my current rom/map. ALL Idle and ISCV settings worked prior to my issues. They have not changed. My Tuner is the best, he wrote the book we all use.

Update 6/15/16 Evening

Tried again all day to repeat what I thought was repeatable to get to idle right from the beginning. ALl day the car ran like crap, and all the times I tried it never caught it's idle, infact it kept learning idle at 500 rpm's, so driving it to a shop was a pain. Shop could not find anything out of the ordinary with any of the sensors. I am at a total loss. I even tried pulling both battery cables, and held them together for 10 minutes. THen let the car sit with out power, trim fuse, and IAC connect for about 30 minutes. THen I reloaded the rom, and tried again, no luck. Wouldn't idle above 500 rpms at a stop.

I have been through everything under the hood, dash, trim panels, rear seat, even looked under the car. No luck.

I bought a Ignition switch that goes in the column behind the key. I'm just out of places to look. I did check voltage at the fuse panel under the dash, drivers side. Fuse link 1 is the ignition fuse. I pulled it, put a fresh one, verified continuity with car off, on, cranking, running, all checked good, but at the same time, I could not read voltage. How is it possible to have continuity but no voltage????? Tested a 9 volt at the same time, got voltage, fluke meter is good. Car still runs though, wont start if that fuse is pulled... Makes no sense. Edit: I've been at this to long. I couldn't read voltage with this fuse out because I couldn't get the leads in the tiny fuse connectors. So plugging the fuse back in and trying to read voltage across the fuse... Duh...that won't happen, need to read one lead there, and the other at an actual ground to get a reading.

Any help to get me to colorado, 700 miles away in two days, Ill paypal the winning ticket!

Logs are recent. 2 logs when I got it to act right yesterday, only to have it fall on it;s face today. Then the log that says RoughIdleTOnight, watch the first 20 minutes or so, its in learning mode on fresh ECM,, Trims, etc.

Thanks for any help any of you can give.

Klaiceps

iTrader: (18)

Is your car in open or closed loop? My issue was that my car would start but it wouldn't idle. AFRs would start at 15 and then drop straight to 17-18 and then die. I changed the IACV, MAP sensor, checked fuel relays, fuel pump, injectors, fuel pressure, performed boost leak test and still couldn't nail down the issue. Since I was running closed loop, I decided to put my car into open loop to see if it could idle. Well whaddya know. My car idled, which led me to believe my O2 sensor was dead. Changed it and all is good now.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

I will check the open loop vs closed loop settings. I just put a new 02 sensor in. No change. It reads just like my old one, though the old one was burnt, fowled, and reading very erratic. This one seems better. However, WHy would closed loop vs open loop change? I know it follows the fuel map then vs the hidden closed loop map for idle, what else does it do or benefit at idle?

THanks for your reply.

Klaiceps

iTrader: (18)

Ah did not know you changed the O2 sensor. When running in closed loop and the engine is warm, the O2 sensor provides feedback to the ECU and the ECU does not go off the fuel map. But once you hit a certain load cell, usually just right before boost, the ECU then goes into open loop, in which case the ECU refers to the fuel map.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

THis I new, and just double checked those tables, as well as the decel fuel cut tables to double check and see if I has something out of whack. I was more asking what are the benefits between open loop vs closed loop at idle? What's the quickest way to test either? Meaning throw it in closed loop for sure, to see if it runs better, and run it in open loop for sure, to see if it runs better? Well, wait a minute, the closed loop vs coolant temp is set to 52 celsius I believe, which means for most of warm up it is running in open loop... Again trims are in check, So after a period of time when trims start to appear, that is when it runs in closed loop.

Good idea though. Im open to any ideas or suggestions. The worst that comes of it is I have already run that test, and maybe have to run it again to check for specific results.

Klaiceps

iTrader: (18)

Ok. I didn't understand your question the first time. Running open vs closed loop, I don't think there's really a real benefit or drawback with either. If your maps are tuned well, then open loop is just as good as closed loop. It seems you've already performed this test so O2 sensor is ruled out. Looks like you've tried every trick in the book and then some. I'm out of ideas at the current moment, but I'll keep this in mind as I go about my day and see if any idea pops up.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Thanks. Going to keep at it, trying to eliminate all possible suggested diagnostics, and then probably have to call in a exorcists, cause after all this, it's got to be possessed.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Update: 6/16/16 afternoon

Isolated the issue. It’s the ECU mechanically, or the ROM setting relating to IAC steps on startup.

I Pulled both battery terminals and stuck them together to zero out the ECU for about 15 minutes. Pulled the 20A fuse that stores trims as well. Pulled IAC Motor plug and left hanging.
Finished putting some stuff back together while it sat. About 45 minutes went by. Hooked up battery, plugged in fuse, left IAC connector hanging. Started car, started logs. Car started excellent. Like before, the car went thru its warm up phase. About 10 minutes in computer was sending signal to IAC to drop steps. I let it hit zero in the logs, and it stayed there. I plugged IAC connector in. Let it idle some more to finish the learn cycle. IAC steps climbed to 20, and back down to 0, several times while logging. I thru the SAS actuator, and to my surprise it idled at about 900. No extreme dip. I let it run in SAS mode for approx 5 minutes. Then shut it off, watched IAC steps in logs climb all the way to 60, then all the way back down to zero. Car never hiccupped. SO I began to work the BISS screw, it took me approx 45 minutes, slowly turn at a time, flipping in and out of SAS mode to check progress. Car never had an issue. Got it tuned and was running awesome. Could throw the actuator and watch RPM’s drop about 75. Return to normal, and RPM’s were on point around 975-1000. Checked and double checked some more. Finally I decided it was time to shut off and start up. Let car rest for 5 minutes, and restarted. Struggled, logs show steps were upwards of 80-90, and it kept struggling. Steps dropped to about 60, but would not go any lower, and then rose again. Car did get 900 rpms but of course was not sounding the greatest. Threw the SAS actuator again, and it nearly died.

Somehow the steps keep climbing on fresh ignition after learning, and never drop down. The cranking ISCV steps table is pretty high, in the 100’s. But then if I understand right, it should switch to the desired ISCV steps at idle, and it doesn’t look to be doing that.

My current rom is attached in post #1.

Thanks again to any one.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

I loaded a different rom with adjustments made. Followed the same listed procedure in post 16. THis time I spent about an hour and a half adjusting. Started at idle, and got it dialed in. Drove it, and steps would not come below 30. SO adjustments in rom made were on the right track. I then made adjustments again to the BISS, and then drove, seems the adjustments dont actually apply until I drive for about ten minutes. So off and on, I did this for the rest of the time. Just got back. It idles at 15 steps fluctuating to 25 and back. Stops were good, dropped down to about 800, and then climbed back to 950-1000. Steps acted accordingly and stayed low. Headlights, closed hood, heater, all affect the steps. I think I got it. We will know in the A.M. Couldn't idle in the driveway and restart. Since the issue starts on fresh ignition after what i I've done, we will see on cold start in the morning. I was able to throw the actuator the whole time while tuning. SO I hope I figured it out. I guess on a side note, I've been through the entire car, and know that everything is in check...lol. We'll see....

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Well preliminary results are in from cold start. While it started pretty good, I am assuming need to adjust the cold start areas in the rom, after warming up, steps still hovering around 65... ****! Back to the ****ing drawing board. Gonna drive it around and see if they fall down like they should.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

I dont ****ing get it. Why is it, at night time, I can get this thing in check, but during the day time, no matter what, they wanna be at 60? Maybe I don't understand how this thing is supposed to work. I don't understand why fresh ignition at any time, causes this. Car drives like a dream. Starts ok, it has the same style of start cold or warm, it jumps to 1000, then dips to about 700, then struggles for about 15 seconds and then actually does come up to 1000 and sounds fine. SO I have made progress, just not specifically with the Target ISCV Position at idle table. Heres what I have in this table, and what I get on fresh ECU learn data, that I can drive around for hours on, getting these readings in logs.

-32/145
-8/131
7/122
20/113
34/95
50/70
77/20
82/15

Had all sensors tested, and working. Just in case you thought maybe my coolant temp sensor was off, since at 50C it runs 70 steps...

Also how does the ISCV Dynamic Load Demand Table work? Was looking over those settings too.

It's got to be a setting.

Thanks in advance.