Manual transmisson
Apology accepted. And I went to school (class of 98) with kids that got new Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, etc. Spoiled!!
@Amby
With everything there is the "Rule of Ten." The rule is that there will always be something 10X better/ expensive of the something.
example The Lancer: ES, GTS, RA, GSR, MR, FQ350, FQ400. Same will go for the TC. They all do the same thing, just at different levels. And it's not so new, it's been around since 1983 when it was first tried by Porsche. So it's been around for 27 years of the 100 that the moder car. Doesn't seem so new and unproven. Yes I know that the TC in the race cars and exotics are different. But it is still the same idea. We all know that the manual will never die, the auto is here to stay also. The TC is a hybrid of both, just like the RA is a hybrid of a sedan and a sports car.
@Amby
With everything there is the "Rule of Ten." The rule is that there will always be something 10X better/ expensive of the something.
example The Lancer: ES, GTS, RA, GSR, MR, FQ350, FQ400. Same will go for the TC. They all do the same thing, just at different levels. And it's not so new, it's been around since 1983 when it was first tried by Porsche. So it's been around for 27 years of the 100 that the moder car. Doesn't seem so new and unproven. Yes I know that the TC in the race cars and exotics are different. But it is still the same idea. We all know that the manual will never die, the auto is here to stay also. The TC is a hybrid of both, just like the RA is a hybrid of a sedan and a sports car.
With the problems of the Mitsubishi TC-SST and the TC system of the GTR, I would still say that the technology is in it's development stages
So one car/series, now that's a small sample size.
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Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Wonder lake IL
Porsche 956 PDK (which stands for Porsche Doppelkupplungsgetriebe, or "Porsche double-clutch gearbox" in English)
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So a full blown race car from the 1980s? If the technology is as well-established as some are claiming, why hasn't it permeated into all forms of competitive motorsports like F1, WRC, LeMans, etc.? I agree completely that TC systems have a rightful place in the future automotive market but I find this notion that it's somehow the king of the hill at the moment to be wildly unrealistic. Manufacturers have only really begun using it on civilian cars in the past decade or so and it hasn't exactly been a perfect integration as even the oldest form on the market (DSG) has had it's share of issues.
You have two separate manufacturers having issues with their twin clutch systems. VW also had problems with their twin clutch system (DSG). So far those are the only three,non-top tier manufacturers (ie. not building sports cars) I know of that are using TC transmissions.
Dude, read... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_clutch_transmission
There are many companies with cars already out or that are in development with a dual clutch.
Your definition of "issues" is greatly exaggerated. Ive had a DSG GTI I know whats up with those cars.
Last edited by DaJackson; May 4, 2010 at 08:59 PM.
Yes I saw that as well. However, there is a vast difference between companies coming out with TC systems and TC systems being the bonafide replacement of the current automatics and manuals as some are suggesting here. The systems are still in their development stages in the sense that they're not in widespread use and those systems that are on the market are still being improved upon for reliability, cost, etc.
A single car is a very small sample size and doesn't dismiss the numerous issues associated with the VW DSG.
A single car is a very small sample size and doesn't dismiss the numerous issues associated with the VW DSG.
With the problems of the Mitsubishi TC-SST and the TC system of the GTR, I would still say that the technology is in it's development stages and is nowhere near the level some people are suggesting it is, ie. ready to replace traditional manuals and automatics as the end all solution.
However, the Getrag variants seem to be struggling, to say the least.
Moral of the story: Some companies seem to have it down and others don't. So who is right? You both are.
/thread
This isn't my thread and none of the rest appear to apply either. There was some discussion sure, but no arguments that I can see. When somebody gets called an idiot, than there's an argument.
^ +1. this is actually one of the more civilized discussions on this topic that i've seen in awhile. and all the major players are involved too, we're making progress... 
on topic, i have to agree with amby. twin clutch systems have been around for quite some time, but they havent been utilized on a regular basis for everyday-commuter style vehicles. the race-style derivitives are much more than would be necessary for everyday use for the average consumer, and that is true, imo, for both the usage and cost aspects of the design.
in order to integrate the tc system into daily driven cars on a more regular basis, they had to, not exactly, but essentially downgrade the race style transmissions in order to provide a cost-effective solution to instaling the transmission into a car that is market valued (in the RA's case) under 30k. this called for many changes that were basically trial and error, to see how cheap they could go while still being reliable for daily use, hency amby's and other's mention of the transmission being in the developmental stages.
the basic design is there, and has been for sometime, but it needs to be tweaked still to determine the best setup for cost-effective reliability on "regular-use" daily-driven type vehicles.
as far as replacing one style of transmission with another, there will always be a market for manual transmissions, regardless of how greatly they improve the tc systems. many manufacturers may decide to eliminate the manual gearbox because of various reasons, but i can nearly guarantee the manual transmission is nowhere near extinction. as far as torque converter based traditional automatics, those may be nearing an end in favor of the cvt AND sst, depending on manufacturer preference, but thats probably going to be the extent of it all.
on topic, i have to agree with amby. twin clutch systems have been around for quite some time, but they havent been utilized on a regular basis for everyday-commuter style vehicles. the race-style derivitives are much more than would be necessary for everyday use for the average consumer, and that is true, imo, for both the usage and cost aspects of the design.
in order to integrate the tc system into daily driven cars on a more regular basis, they had to, not exactly, but essentially downgrade the race style transmissions in order to provide a cost-effective solution to instaling the transmission into a car that is market valued (in the RA's case) under 30k. this called for many changes that were basically trial and error, to see how cheap they could go while still being reliable for daily use, hency amby's and other's mention of the transmission being in the developmental stages.
the basic design is there, and has been for sometime, but it needs to be tweaked still to determine the best setup for cost-effective reliability on "regular-use" daily-driven type vehicles.
as far as replacing one style of transmission with another, there will always be a market for manual transmissions, regardless of how greatly they improve the tc systems. many manufacturers may decide to eliminate the manual gearbox because of various reasons, but i can nearly guarantee the manual transmission is nowhere near extinction. as far as torque converter based traditional automatics, those may be nearing an end in favor of the cvt AND sst, depending on manufacturer preference, but thats probably going to be the extent of it all.