RNR, Full Race and Ebay 02 housing testing by Buschur Racing
Dec 23, 2005, 12:16 PM
#1
RNR, Full Race and Ebay 02 housing testing by Buschur Racing
Well I have tried to call RnR for the last 5 minutes. They must be very busy there as all I get is a busy signal. I wanted to talk to Ryan about the header before I take it off my RS and move onto the next test of the Full Race manifold.
The RS has been apart waiting on suspension for the last couple weeks. I put it back together and threw a quick alignment on it. Changed some other things around and tried a few new things in the AEM map when I started it. Put the car on the dyno and made 3 pulls. The car made 333.2 whp and 331.3 ft lbs. The changes I made had little effect over the last time I dyno'd it but they are up a horsepower or two. I am running 22 psi peak and the boost is falling to about 20 psi. AFR's are in the mid 11's. I datalogged 3 base runs which were between 330 and 333 whp before I swapped the ported/coated stock manifold out for the RNR header.
First off, if you are going to install the RNR header you will need a few things. A 6-8" extension, a swivel and I'd suggest a ratching 12mm and 15 mm wrench. It's tight on some of the bolts. Also remember to get some couplings to put the new radiator hose on with or you will have to cut your stock upper radiator hose. The cam sensor shield is really nice, the headers is not too actually. Perfect fit as far as where it goes. The turbo doesn't have to be moved or twisted, bolts went in although some are VERY hard to get to.
I made 2 pulls with the header, both came in slightly under the ported/coated manifold by 2-3 whp. I graphed them and saw the slight loss in low/mid range that I have seen with every header. The boost dropped off about a pound at peak and 2 psi at redline.
This sent up a flag, I wondered if the loss in boost was from better scavenging of the head, if this was the case that would be GREAT! In my experience though the turbine wheel is the choking point and a header won't help with scavenging in that case. Jarrod was back there and I said, "What the hell, let's crank up the boost." I turned the boost controller up 2 full turns. I said, if it works it is going to make a bunch of power, if it isn't from scavenging it is going to knock like a b itch.
Next pull wasn't better. With the boost being equal to the manifold the power was down. Low/end midrange of the graph was the same but once the boost hit 21-22 psi the car knocked and pulled timing/added fuel.
The verdict is............I did what I could and honestly have seen the same thing I have on all the rest.
Sorry, believe me, I didn't short cut this and the car is tuned as aggressively as I can get it to make the power. This was proven with the increase in boost that caused the power to drop.
I am heading back to test the Full Race manifold now.
Here are the two dyno run comparisons:
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
The RS has been apart waiting on suspension for the last couple weeks. I put it back together and threw a quick alignment on it. Changed some other things around and tried a few new things in the AEM map when I started it. Put the car on the dyno and made 3 pulls. The car made 333.2 whp and 331.3 ft lbs. The changes I made had little effect over the last time I dyno'd it but they are up a horsepower or two. I am running 22 psi peak and the boost is falling to about 20 psi. AFR's are in the mid 11's. I datalogged 3 base runs which were between 330 and 333 whp before I swapped the ported/coated stock manifold out for the RNR header.
First off, if you are going to install the RNR header you will need a few things. A 6-8" extension, a swivel and I'd suggest a ratching 12mm and 15 mm wrench. It's tight on some of the bolts. Also remember to get some couplings to put the new radiator hose on with or you will have to cut your stock upper radiator hose. The cam sensor shield is really nice, the headers is not too actually. Perfect fit as far as where it goes. The turbo doesn't have to be moved or twisted, bolts went in although some are VERY hard to get to.
I made 2 pulls with the header, both came in slightly under the ported/coated manifold by 2-3 whp. I graphed them and saw the slight loss in low/mid range that I have seen with every header. The boost dropped off about a pound at peak and 2 psi at redline.
This sent up a flag, I wondered if the loss in boost was from better scavenging of the head, if this was the case that would be GREAT! In my experience though the turbine wheel is the choking point and a header won't help with scavenging in that case. Jarrod was back there and I said, "What the hell, let's crank up the boost." I turned the boost controller up 2 full turns. I said, if it works it is going to make a bunch of power, if it isn't from scavenging it is going to knock like a b itch.
Next pull wasn't better. With the boost being equal to the manifold the power was down. Low/end midrange of the graph was the same but once the boost hit 21-22 psi the car knocked and pulled timing/added fuel.
The verdict is............I did what I could and honestly have seen the same thing I have on all the rest.
Sorry, believe me, I didn't short cut this and the car is tuned as aggressively as I can get it to make the power. This was proven with the increase in boost that caused the power to drop.
I am heading back to test the Full Race manifold now.
Here are the two dyno run comparisons:
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Last edited by David Buschur; Dec 24, 2005 at 12:54 AM. Reason: changed topic
Dec 23, 2005, 12:44 PM
#3
BTW, this is about the best we have seen from any header. So this post/test is in NO WAY meant to downgrade the header. No way. It is atleast as good as anything else we have tested/seen.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dec 23, 2005, 01:30 PM
#5
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Great info Dave. I like the ported/coated stock manifold, looks like it spools faster from the dyno graphs. You better stock up on them ported manifolds because they will be selling fast at that price.
Last edited by use2vtec; Dec 23, 2005 at 01:33 PM.
Dec 23, 2005, 01:33 PM
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Dave I think trying for 5min then making this post is a bit poor,
You should have tested all the units you are going to and then speak to the people concernd then made a post.
Mark
You should have tested all the units you are going to and then speak to the people concernd then made a post.
Mark
Dec 23, 2005, 01:36 PM
#7
Thanks Mark, I don't care what you think is poor. The truth is the truth and that is what I am testing for. All I wanted to ask Ryan was if he had something else he wanted me to try, the test was fair but wanted to give him a shot at inputing something else.
Feel free to invest in a dyno and do some testing on your own. These headers have been out for atleast a month and nobody else stepped up with a fair test, what the hell do you want?
I swear the more I try to help the more critics pop up.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Feel free to invest in a dyno and do some testing on your own. These headers have been out for atleast a month and nobody else stepped up with a fair test, what the hell do you want?
I swear the more I try to help the more critics pop up.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
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Dec 23, 2005, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark S
Dave I think trying for 5min then making this post is a bit poor,
You should have tested all the units you are going to and then speak to the people concernd then made a post.
Mark
You should have tested all the units you are going to and then speak to the people concernd then made a post.
Mark
he was trying to call rnr for 5 minutes
Dec 23, 2005, 01:39 PM
#9
Yes, this testing is being done against our ported and ceramic coated stock manifold. The RNR header I am sure would offer some gains over 4500 rpm if tested against a stone stock unported/uncoated manifold.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dec 23, 2005, 01:44 PM
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Mr. Buschur,
Does this indicate that the RnR manifold causes the knock sensor to activate?
It seems that the other testers reported the same problem...
thanks
Does this indicate that the RnR manifold causes the knock sensor to activate?
It seems that the other testers reported the same problem...
thanks
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Thanks Mark, I don't care what you think is poor. The truth is the truth and that is what I am testing for. All I wanted to ask Ryan was if he had something else he wanted me to try, the test was fair but wanted to give him a shot at inputing something else.
Feel free to invest in a dyno and do some testing on your own. These headers have been out for atleast a month and nobody else stepped up with a fair test, what the hell do you want?
I swear the more I try to help the more critics pop up.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Feel free to invest in a dyno and do some testing on your own. These headers have been out for atleast a month and nobody else stepped up with a fair test, what the hell do you want?
I swear the more I try to help the more critics pop up.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dec 23, 2005, 01:48 PM
#11
We are jamming here. Pulled off the RNR header and put the Full Race header on.
Exceptional fit. Every bolt is easy to access, no "special" tools. You do need to start 2-3 of the nuts on the head flange before tightening them up as the clearance from the end of the stud to the runner is tight, not a problem. Header is beautiful.
This particular header had a pre-production head flange on it. The ports were smaller than the ports at the head. I knew that could hurt the test. I called and got ahold of Geoff on his cel phone (shop gave it to me) and asked if I could port match it to the head. He said, "Please do as that head flange is not what we are going to see, it is all we had that we could get you in time for a test."
Anyway, first pull I was shocked to find that it gained power. The car made 339.7 whp and 335 ft lbs of torque. This was an increase of 7.7 whp and 4.7 ft lbs over the ported/coated stock parts. Very small loss up to 3800 rpm, very small maybe 2-3 hp at most. Over 4500 it made more power to 7,000 rpm.
I pulled up the datalog to compare to the stock manifold pulls and was surprised to see the AFR's changed quite a bit. Went as lean as 12.2:1. Very odd. It had cooled down quite a bit in the dyno room as the "sun" here is going down.
This leaner AFR would for sure make more power. I double checked the logs and boost and added 2-3% of fuel in the midrange. Pulled the car again and the power came down just a little.
The graph below shows the two parts compared to each other with the AFR's and boost levels being the same (same way I did the test with the RNR header). This header has much shorter runners than the RNR but has longer runners than any other production header out there, that I've seen.
Surprisingly after the AFR was adjusted the spool up is IDENTICAL to the stock ported/coated parts. This is the FIRST time I have seen a header NOT loose anything on the low/mid range. The power is basically the same, just smoothed out a small dip in the base pull I did.
Very nice. I don't know what this piece costs but I am sure Full Race can chime in. I'd say if you are looking for header this is the one to buy. I will give it my "stamp" of approval
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Exceptional fit. Every bolt is easy to access, no "special" tools. You do need to start 2-3 of the nuts on the head flange before tightening them up as the clearance from the end of the stud to the runner is tight, not a problem. Header is beautiful.
This particular header had a pre-production head flange on it. The ports were smaller than the ports at the head. I knew that could hurt the test. I called and got ahold of Geoff on his cel phone (shop gave it to me) and asked if I could port match it to the head. He said, "Please do as that head flange is not what we are going to see, it is all we had that we could get you in time for a test."
Anyway, first pull I was shocked to find that it gained power. The car made 339.7 whp and 335 ft lbs of torque. This was an increase of 7.7 whp and 4.7 ft lbs over the ported/coated stock parts. Very small loss up to 3800 rpm, very small maybe 2-3 hp at most. Over 4500 it made more power to 7,000 rpm.
I pulled up the datalog to compare to the stock manifold pulls and was surprised to see the AFR's changed quite a bit. Went as lean as 12.2:1. Very odd. It had cooled down quite a bit in the dyno room as the "sun" here is going down.
This leaner AFR would for sure make more power. I double checked the logs and boost and added 2-3% of fuel in the midrange. Pulled the car again and the power came down just a little.
The graph below shows the two parts compared to each other with the AFR's and boost levels being the same (same way I did the test with the RNR header). This header has much shorter runners than the RNR but has longer runners than any other production header out there, that I've seen.
Surprisingly after the AFR was adjusted the spool up is IDENTICAL to the stock ported/coated parts. This is the FIRST time I have seen a header NOT loose anything on the low/mid range. The power is basically the same, just smoothed out a small dip in the base pull I did.
Very nice. I don't know what this piece costs but I am sure Full Race can chime in. I'd say if you are looking for header this is the one to buy. I will give it my "stamp" of approval
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dec 23, 2005, 01:50 PM
#12
NO, the RNR header does NOT cause knock. I would not agree with that at all. The header is fine. The extra knock I got was from turning up the boost another two turns to try to equalize it for the test. I don't think the actual header had anything at all to do with it.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dec 23, 2005, 01:55 PM
#13
Side note.
We did some other testing while we were back there. Most of you are familar with the conical filter with the funnel end we use/sell. That is what is on my car. I decided maybe it was too small for this WHP level. I pulled it off and ran the intake pipe wide open with no filter. No change in WHP. I then put on an equivalent K&N sized filter (slightly larger actually but no funnel in the end). Pulled the car again and same thing, no change in power or AFR's.
We are going to try and pull off one more test before we leave today. I bought one of those cheap $80 stainless steel 02 housings off of Ebay. (sorry, couldn't resist) We are bolting it on right now. Car is still on the dyno. Interesting piece, I don't know how in the hell someone can make that part and sell it for $80. I don't honestly think it can last very long as it is pretty thin material and it has been hammer formed in spots so it has to be even thinner there. Overall the part is excellent quality though, just amazes me. The inside dimensions are big. Our ported housing is slightly smaller just before the outlet than this is. It will be interesting to see if that little difference in size makes more power. If so we will be removing even more material from our ported 02 housings.
Stand by.....
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
We did some other testing while we were back there. Most of you are familar with the conical filter with the funnel end we use/sell. That is what is on my car. I decided maybe it was too small for this WHP level. I pulled it off and ran the intake pipe wide open with no filter. No change in WHP. I then put on an equivalent K&N sized filter (slightly larger actually but no funnel in the end). Pulled the car again and same thing, no change in power or AFR's.
We are going to try and pull off one more test before we leave today. I bought one of those cheap $80 stainless steel 02 housings off of Ebay. (sorry, couldn't resist) We are bolting it on right now. Car is still on the dyno. Interesting piece, I don't know how in the hell someone can make that part and sell it for $80. I don't honestly think it can last very long as it is pretty thin material and it has been hammer formed in spots so it has to be even thinner there. Overall the part is excellent quality though, just amazes me. The inside dimensions are big. Our ported housing is slightly smaller just before the outlet than this is. It will be interesting to see if that little difference in size makes more power. If so we will be removing even more material from our ported 02 housings.
Stand by.....
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dec 23, 2005, 02:01 PM
#15
Looks to me like the real winner in the test is the free, stock, cast exhaust manifold that makes the same power, is legal, and will last forever. Now, I'd like to see a test of the bone stock manifold vs. the DB ported and heat treated OEM one.
Last edited by Smogrunner; Dec 23, 2005 at 02:04 PM.