spoolinspyder

iTrader: (1)

i have been experiencing these problems with my EMS for the past few weeks. I have noticed that my knock retard seems to be consistently pulling timing even though no knock volts are recorded. There are areas on the log where 4.97 degrees of timng is being pulled when knock voltage is less than my desired threshhold. I have tried many things to determine my tune was safe including being tuned on the dyno where everything from retarding timing, having perfect A/F ratio on both my lm-1 and their in-house sensor. I also tried using 100 octane to verify any differences in knock voltage, examining the rich spark plugs, while also clearing the engine from anything that may trigger false knock. Im stumped and will more liklely be sending it in for some in-house diagnostic work.

Another issue i have seen is that O2 gain is not affecting my O2 sync in any way. I could make sweeps from.98 - .50 and no change in reading between the freshly calibrated LM-1 and the dash. There would be days where my O2 readings mirrored each other and BAMMMM! next thing you know O2's are all over the place and lm-1 remaing stable..... hmmm
Are any of you guys noticing symptoms like these. If all else fails, im thinking about removing the knock sensor to add some teflon tape on the threads to help desensitize and dampen the sensor from external noises

post an E-mail if you dont mind checkin out my logs and cal. files from different scenarios including right off the dyno on the tuning tech map, logs on 100 oct and 1 all on 91 oct which all showing the knock bug and some showing both type bugs. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

racegate

iTrader: (1)

Are you looking at internal logs for the knock volts?

John Reed

iTrader: (2)

Shoot me the logs and cal files and I will take a look at them.

Are you logging knock in the internal logger or pc? Are you logging knock raw or knock volts? Did you setup your knock sensor cal table?

Not sure on the O2. When you say "dash" vs LM1, what do you mean? How is your LM1 hooked to your AEM? Did you pin it directly into the AEM, or did you "T" it to the existing O2 sensor wire?

spoolinspyder

iTrader: (1)

this is what i have done so far.... I logged both pc and internal logs where its noticeable in the internal ones that something is making noise causing both knock volts and raw to spike. Yesterday, i removed the valve cover to check for any valvetrain problems and everything was snug. I don't have any lifter issues after my 272 install and there is definitely nothing else in that frequency range that could cause the knock sensor to retard timing. So far what i have noticed is that with 0 knock volt and raw volts the EMS is retarding timing near 5 degrees which is what i have it set to.

As for the O2, what i mean is they are not reading accordingly with each other AEM and LM-1. I didn't T the wire in because i wanted a solid signal and the O2 gain in the EMS doesn't manipulate the signals at all. Very odd that the EMS would read in the 7:1 range and my trusty ol' LM-1 reads in the 11:1 range.

GTVEVO

iTrader: (22)

Are you running version 1.19, or an older version (1.11, 1.03)?

spoolinspyder

iTrader: (1)

i've ran both 1.11 and 1.19 doing the conversion word for word & vice versa. I have experienced this with both versions. All signs lead to no detonation, but from what i heard today when listening closely is a slight rattle simiilar to detonation, but im sure it wasn't. i put the stock ecu back in and the noise was gone.... what concerns me is no signs of detonation, safe tune on the dyno, clean plugs, 100 octane, etc but still knock?..... hmmmmm, this is a little tricky

GTVEVO

iTrader: (22)

If it is showing it probably is detonation, the dyno will not produce the same enviroment as the street so keep that in mind. This is why I final tune on the street/strip regardless. Just lower boost and back out ign timing to see if you loose it, if it goes away it was infact detonation, but if not you will know for sure and you can trace it down else where.

Good Luck

Jason Siebels

As for the knock, if you are getting retard, your knock volts HAS to be exceeding the allowable level in the knock noise table....period. Check your logging rates on your internal logger....make sure it is set to 250. It's there....trust me...

As for the O2, which gain are you adjusting? You have to be adjusting the one in the O2 sensor setup, not in the O2 feedback.....2 completely different controls! That or you are definately on the wrong wire.

spoolinspyder

iTrader: (1)

i spoke to many people about this situation including RRE, as well as the techs from AEM. Regarding detonation, on a safe tune with 100 octane, knock should be supressed due to the slower burn rate of the fuel. I understand that street and dynos yeild different results, but according to my plugs, fuel, and timing curve, knock shouldn't be there. Although i did hear the audible noise it was making that set off the frequency to activate the knock control. Sounded to me like pinging, so i tossed in the stock ECU and it was gone.

As for my O2 gain, it is definitely setup correctly because some days it would read perfect and other days it would be all over the place. As for wiring, i checked for resistance on the correct wires and everything turned out great. Wiring is solid, but the AEM gets funky sometimes. Thanks for the guidance guys, but this brotha is still stuck. im gonna pull timing to see what happens and i'll try and modify the tune myself.

Jason Siebels

I am curious as to what what "according to my plugs, fuel, and timing curve, knock shouldn't be there" means exactly. If you put the stock computer in and it went away.....simply....you have a tuning issue.

Now, on the O2 you stated you were changing the gain with no response. Now you are saying it would read "Perfect" sometimes, and other days it would "be all over the place". There is a big diffence in problems here. Which problem is it, if you are looking at the O2 volts in your parameter screen, adjust the o2 gain in the sensor setup, and get no change in voltage, you have something mechanically wrong! If your sensor is working sometimes, and not others, this is a different problem all together!

spoolinspyder

iTrader: (1)

Check it out, just to clarify things..... plugs have no signs of detonation (clean, with no metallic *****), 100 octane was used to supress knock (didn't effect the spikes in the log), and my timing curve starts at 3.5 at peak torque then gradually ramps up to 17 up top (never gets there though due to knock retard kicking in). Like you said i put the stock ECU back in and the noise did go away leading me to believe myself that its in the tune. My question is, if its truly detonation why aren't there signs of it all over my plugs and how come 100 octane was ineffective?

Now onto the O2 problem. It is just like i mentioned. The O2 gain did not change the voltage reading at all meaning i could drop it to .50 - 1.00 and no change would occur. There is definitely nothing mechanicall wrong with the car but the EMS is questionable. The LM-1 unit reads perfectly all the time no matter what my o2 parameters read on the EMS and thats why i trust that more (nothing is manipulating the LM-1, but actual A/F ratio > considering its freshly calibrated). I know it may sound confusing but this is exactly whats happening, no BS. Some days it would work fine without touching the O2 gain and some days the O2 are all over the place. I sent different logs showing both occurances and the car feels and acts the same way whether or no the logs and parameters show 7:1 or 11.2:1.

GTVEVO

iTrader: (22)

As for the knock did you try backing the ign timing down. Honestly a max of 17 deg on regular fuel is rather high from my experience, I always end up around 9-12 at 7k at 19.5 psi. You might have to drop it a bit to get it to go away.

Signs of detonation on your plugs is very hard to read and you can't always see it from just looking at them. Also the plugs need to be removed right away to get a good reading. 100oct not being affective could be several reasons, I know I have been to the track before and purchased race gas that didn't add up either though so it wouldn't supprise me unless you was buying it from a company that could store it properly and you had faith in them.

Jason Siebels

Quite simply, you don't have the tune you think you do! See below.

.There are only two things that can cause this problem, you are adjusting the wrong option (O2 gain in the o2 feedback menu instead of o2#1 gain in the setup/sensors/o2sensors/o2#1) or, you do NOT have the output wire of your Innovate going to the correct pin....THAT's it....period! Now if you have a problem with your o2 sensor, the gain would still change the voltage. The gain is a software scaler that quite simply takes whatever voltage is there.....then trims it so the O2 calibration would be "sync'd" with the table based on a given voltage. You CAN NOT have everything perfect and have this problem. There is NO way anything could be wrong with the ECU to cause this. THe ECU could be on fire....smoke rolling out of the box, and if you are monitoring a voltage (of any value above zero) the O2 gain that coincides with that sensor will change the values...end of story...this is a software function, not a hardware function. So if it didn't work for you, it wouldn't work for 3000plus other people either.

You are getting detonation because you do NOT have the air fuel you think you do...quit driving the car until you fix this or you will blow up your engine. I have blown apart pistons and had the plugs look like bran new.....doesn't always tell you anything...depends upon numerous things. If you are hearing knock.....it's bad enough to destroy your engine!

Your call!

spoolinspyder

iTrader: (1)

I agree with both you guys. If i can hear it, it's definitrly there thats for sure. You would figure on the other hand that I should be getting the correct A/F reading because my LM-1 and their in house wideband read correspondingly. I know personally that the 100 octane was as good as i gets because i pumped it myself from the drums where i work. We store and supply 100 - C14 properly in sealed drums, we we got fresh from VP just about a week ago. I can rule the bad fuel theory out the question on this one.
Jason, in regards to the O2, like i said im smart enough to know the differences in o2 feedback and o2 sensor cal gain options. The Lm-1 is also definitley going to the correct pin..... PERIOD! Only if I could show you in person what the hell was going on, you would understand, but unfortunatley i cant. Not everything in this world is perfect, **** can happen. There would be no reason for me to argue about this if it wasn't true or occuring. I agree with you Jason that my tune is not what i think it is and i did what any smart person would do which is put the stock ECU back in, verify the problem is in the tune, do some research, try and fix the problem, and avoid throwing anyone under the bus while doing so. I believe Good Tuners make mistakes toooo, we just have to be smart enough to catch it.

Tell me this, a reputable tuner would and should know if knock is present or affecting the engine while on the dyno correct through the instrumentation they have available. We made several pulls on the dyno, with the same knock voltage and same readings, and luckily no hurt motor. This problem should have been visible with the smoothing turned off, but it wasn't.... I strongly believe the person who tuned my car did exactly everything he could to make power while being safe at the same time and i dont knock him at all for letting me go in the state of tune i was in, considering i knew what went on and took place while on the dyno. No trickery just helpful information >>> leading both the tuner and i too believe it may have been a quirk in the EMS.

>>>>. all in all though, If i could hear it myself it's definitley there.

GTVEVO

iTrader: (22)

There are some very good tuners out there and they probably did things right but honestly there are so many varibles that can cause the car to run different in a knock state that it will be very hard to narrow it down to know exactly what varible car or AEM (one or more) have changed. Frustrating I know but I have seen similar things this being why I always tune alittle safer than others on daily street tunes and then I turn up the wick at the track considerably if everything works out like it should.

As for the dyno I don't know if you would of seen the jagged spikes if knock control wasn't kicking in via the AEM. I know I don't on the DD dyno I use, you can only see it if knock control takes into affect.