No Excuses rules discussion - I have a question
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
I'm not sure I fully understand your question Al.
So are you saying the hypothetical bumper trips the beams when staging so you are effectively staging shallower than you would if you were tripping the beams with a tire? And I guess hypothetically your indicating that the beam would not be "cleared" until after the tire rolled by. In reality when the car launches the lift created by the launch would probably cause the beam that was triggered by the bumper to be cleared immediatly, thereby probably negating any attempt at hypothetical super shallow staging or cheating - essentially just adding a few feet to the 1/4mile.
Sounds like cheating to me if it's actually possible to do what I think your describing. Any intentional attempt to trick the staging / timing devices at a track sounds clearly like cheating to me. In competition the track official doing the staging should ensure that vehicles are staged properly, other competitors should keep the rest of the field honest if the official doesnt notice. In test and tune and Evo Fastest 15 or whatever there are no rules so your only cheating yourself. I know at my track they wouldnt let you stage this way anyhow.
Just because someone has a low lip on their car does not make them a cheater IMO. If your trying to insinuate that <insert> is cheating just because they have aero parts on their car that hypothetically could be used to cheat that's a whole lot of "IF" and looks like a path to "FAIL".
So are you saying the hypothetical bumper trips the beams when staging so you are effectively staging shallower than you would if you were tripping the beams with a tire? And I guess hypothetically your indicating that the beam would not be "cleared" until after the tire rolled by. In reality when the car launches the lift created by the launch would probably cause the beam that was triggered by the bumper to be cleared immediatly, thereby probably negating any attempt at hypothetical super shallow staging or cheating - essentially just adding a few feet to the 1/4mile.
Sounds like cheating to me if it's actually possible to do what I think your describing. Any intentional attempt to trick the staging / timing devices at a track sounds clearly like cheating to me. In competition the track official doing the staging should ensure that vehicles are staged properly, other competitors should keep the rest of the field honest if the official doesnt notice. In test and tune and Evo Fastest 15 or whatever there are no rules so your only cheating yourself. I know at my track they wouldnt let you stage this way anyhow.
Just because someone has a low lip on their car does not make them a cheater IMO. If your trying to insinuate that <insert> is cheating just because they have aero parts on their car that hypothetically could be used to cheat that's a whole lot of "IF" and looks like a path to "FAIL".
The NHRA has solved this situation by requiring a 3" ground clearance on the body over the beams which sit at 1.5/8 th " high
When you have a body less than 1 5/8" high off the ground it will break the beams
The point of my thread is not to suggest that ANYONE in PARTICULAR is cheating - my point is to get some opinions on what the members think about the idea
Al
I put your aero undertrays on and a front areo on to help me to be more stable not to cheat in anyway. You know when you get above 160mph it doesnt take much to flip a car so any help is worth it. I run at so many tracks and they have not said anything. I will ask them this sunday and have them run thru it with me
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Al's post about the heights of the car is correct, it is in the rule book from what I remember. I am sure he quoted it directly. So there are already rules about how low the car can be.
I took the time to call the race track because I already knew about this subject from long ago. Back in the '70's some guys were caught cheating by running a plate under the car the length of the car. This would allow the car to be staged correctly but the Stage beam would not re-connect for 14', the ET's would be low, 60' times were low but the MPH remains the same.
I just got off the phone with the owner of Summit Motorsports Park.
Here is some information. The Pre Staged and Staged beams are lasers, the laser beam is 1/8" diameter. After these two beams many tracks in the past had what was called a "guard beam" this would trigger a red light if the staged beam and the gaurd beam were ever both off at the same time, it protected against cheating with a car that was too low in the front end. This beam has now been removed from most if not all tracks as after the cheating was caught people stopped doing it. Summit Motorsports Park no longer uses a guard beam but does have a 3rd light that allows some wiggle room for stick cars that move slightly.
The height off the track is 1.5" for the laser beams. So it is very easy to see that if the car is lower than 1.5" from the ground in the front then the tip of the fascia is going to trip the pre-staged and staged beams first. This then allows for the car to move, possibly, all the way to the back of the front tire before the timers are started.
This would then show a very quick 60' time and very quick ET, the MPH on the other hand would show up as normal.
The MPH is timed in the last 66' of the track. There are two lasers there also. The first one starts the MPH clock, the second on ends the MPH clock and ET.
There is no reason to debate this. There are rules already outlined on how low a car can be in the front. IF it is even close to 1.5" from the ground then there is a problem for sure. Those timing lights are not measured each and evertime they are put in, although they should be very very close. IF you are anywhere near 1.5" then I'd say the chances of the times being manipulated are extremely good.
I just measured our car and it is 4-1/8" off the ground.
So the rules are the rules, the cars do have a minimum ride height in the front to keep this type of thing from happening.
I took the time to call the race track because I already knew about this subject from long ago. Back in the '70's some guys were caught cheating by running a plate under the car the length of the car. This would allow the car to be staged correctly but the Stage beam would not re-connect for 14', the ET's would be low, 60' times were low but the MPH remains the same.
I just got off the phone with the owner of Summit Motorsports Park.
Here is some information. The Pre Staged and Staged beams are lasers, the laser beam is 1/8" diameter. After these two beams many tracks in the past had what was called a "guard beam" this would trigger a red light if the staged beam and the gaurd beam were ever both off at the same time, it protected against cheating with a car that was too low in the front end. This beam has now been removed from most if not all tracks as after the cheating was caught people stopped doing it. Summit Motorsports Park no longer uses a guard beam but does have a 3rd light that allows some wiggle room for stick cars that move slightly.
The height off the track is 1.5" for the laser beams. So it is very easy to see that if the car is lower than 1.5" from the ground in the front then the tip of the fascia is going to trip the pre-staged and staged beams first. This then allows for the car to move, possibly, all the way to the back of the front tire before the timers are started.
This would then show a very quick 60' time and very quick ET, the MPH on the other hand would show up as normal.
The MPH is timed in the last 66' of the track. There are two lasers there also. The first one starts the MPH clock, the second on ends the MPH clock and ET.
There is no reason to debate this. There are rules already outlined on how low a car can be in the front. IF it is even close to 1.5" from the ground then there is a problem for sure. Those timing lights are not measured each and evertime they are put in, although they should be very very close. IF you are anywhere near 1.5" then I'd say the chances of the times being manipulated are extremely good.
I just measured our car and it is 4-1/8" off the ground.
So the rules are the rules, the cars do have a minimum ride height in the front to keep this type of thing from happening.
I am feeling the same way that since adding any device which tricks the beams is going to "trick" the timing equipment it is not a honest run.
Since the timing gear is designed to work off the car's tires, it is important to assure that the body work does not interfear with the beams to get a fair result.
In a heads up race I guess it would be a moot issue as the delay of the beam breaking would add to the R/T but in a so called record attempt - imho it is an UNFAIR advantage to have a rolling start on the timing beams and results in any numbers being obtained being useless.
On a side note - do you or will you enforce this rule at the shootout ? I want a level playing field there.
Al
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
I put your aero undertrays on and a front areo on to help me to be more stable not to cheat in anyway. You know when you get above 160mph it doesnt take much to flip a car so any help is worth it. I run at so many tracks and they have not said anything. I will ask them this sunday and have them run thru it with me
The issue with what ever attachments you have is IF they are breaking the beam ahead of the tire. You can find that out yourself by rolling the car up to the line and having your assitant or friend watch as the car approaches the pre stage beam when it is triggered.
Mike that is correct and I didn't touch on that. The ET light at the end of the track if the car is low will also trip the ET light early with the front fascia. There are a lot of guys that play that game and hit the brakes right at the ET stripe, tripping the lights early.
I just measured our car from the tip of the fascia to the back of the front tire, it is 3.5' difference.
The track officials that work on the starting line on a normal night of racing like we all attend could give to s hits less if your car is low or not. They are making $6.25 an hour to stand there and just want you to get down the track without putting oil and water down. That is a fact. Non of them are paying enough attention to see if you are staged with the nose or the tire.
I just measured our car from the tip of the fascia to the back of the front tire, it is 3.5' difference.
The track officials that work on the starting line on a normal night of racing like we all attend could give to s hits less if your car is low or not. They are making $6.25 an hour to stand there and just want you to get down the track without putting oil and water down. That is a fact. Non of them are paying enough attention to see if you are staged with the nose or the tire.
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I dont know if it is true in all classes but in top fuel they stager the front wheels so I believe the left front is x amount in front of the right front tire so the left tire trips the staging beam and when there is lift from the torque the left tire is not what is registered on take off. hmmm rolling start?
Just from reading this I think someone here is a cry baby you know who u are just get out there and race. I agree with spark tech
Just from reading this I think someone here is a cry baby you know who u are just get out there and race. I agree with spark tech
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From: Miami fl.
Staggering the front wheels is the norm for any race car and for some street cars if you knew it could be done. NHRA also have a rule that governs the amount of 'stagger' that can be done.
I knew of a race car that had a piece of foam attached to the bottom of the motor that ran just a couple of inches to the front and rear of the front wheels to givie the effect of having a larger wheel or more roll out as they say.
Lately I've been seeing a lot of cars mainly FWD's that are using the mandatory 'engine catch pans' having the same effect also. On some cars they're attached so low that they are at the point of touching the track and many times you can see and here it also.
Like I said too many rules take the fun out of racing. Other than safety most rules are made for the cry babies!!!!
I knew of a race car that had a piece of foam attached to the bottom of the motor that ran just a couple of inches to the front and rear of the front wheels to givie the effect of having a larger wheel or more roll out as they say.
Lately I've been seeing a lot of cars mainly FWD's that are using the mandatory 'engine catch pans' having the same effect also. On some cars they're attached so low that they are at the point of touching the track and many times you can see and here it also.
Like I said too many rules take the fun out of racing. Other than safety most rules are made for the cry babies!!!!
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I think that answers the OP's question sufficiently. 
Interesting thread but strange timing of it all seeing as how the most recent 8 second Evo has a big front lip for aero. Hate to see Al saying it is a coincidence.
Interesting thread but strange timing of it all seeing as how the most recent 8 second Evo has a big front lip for aero. Hate to see Al saying it is a coincidence.
Agreeing with anyone that cheating the timing lights during a timed event is OK makes the person saying it and agreeing a God damn retard.
IF in fact the front of the car or anything hanging under the car is tripping the beams instead of the tires it is cheating the timing system.
This is NOT an EVO rule, it is a rule written by IHRA/NHRA to be certain that the vehicle being timed is being timed in the same distance as all the other cars.
Some of you are so stupid it's a good thing your heart beat and breathing are involuntary functions or you die.
To answer your question Al, YES absolutely, any car running at the shootout will have to have a minimum front height of 3" and we will now check to make sure there are no dividers under the car.
Stupidity all over this place.
IF in fact the front of the car or anything hanging under the car is tripping the beams instead of the tires it is cheating the timing system.
This is NOT an EVO rule, it is a rule written by IHRA/NHRA to be certain that the vehicle being timed is being timed in the same distance as all the other cars.
Some of you are so stupid it's a good thing your heart beat and breathing are involuntary functions or you die.
To answer your question Al, YES absolutely, any car running at the shootout will have to have a minimum front height of 3" and we will now check to make sure there are no dividers under the car.
Stupidity all over this place.
Staggering the front wheels is the norm for any race car and for some street cars if you knew it could be done. NHRA also have a rule that governs the amount of 'stagger' that can be done.
I knew of a race car that had a piece of foam attached to the bottom of the motor that ran just a couple of inches to the front and rear of the front wheels to givie the effect of having a larger wheel or more roll out as they say.
Lately I've been seeing a lot of cars mainly FWD's that are using the mandatory 'engine catch pans' having the same effect also. On some cars they're attached so low that they are at the point of touching the track and many times you can see and here it also.
Like I said too many rules take the fun out of racing. Other than safety most rules are made for the cry babies!!!!
I knew of a race car that had a piece of foam attached to the bottom of the motor that ran just a couple of inches to the front and rear of the front wheels to givie the effect of having a larger wheel or more roll out as they say.
Lately I've been seeing a lot of cars mainly FWD's that are using the mandatory 'engine catch pans' having the same effect also. On some cars they're attached so low that they are at the point of touching the track and many times you can see and here it also.
Like I said too many rules take the fun out of racing. Other than safety most rules are made for the cry babies!!!!
Mike are you still posting..
Wow, this is very informative. I do agree that if anything in front is too low it can cause a problem, as I have seen people DQd in NHRA import for it.
It is definitly something to look out for especially if running an event.
Would someone really do this intentionally? Could be unintentional and done out of ignorance. The bottom line is NHRA has a rule regarding this and there is a reason.
Sean
It is definitly something to look out for especially if running an event.
Would someone really do this intentionally? Could be unintentional and done out of ignorance. The bottom line is NHRA has a rule regarding this and there is a reason.
Sean