^ lol UFO, ah man, i come from honduh-tech.com and we have similar "discussions" there too. i think it's just that when people have faster cars they automatically think their knowledge goes up. but yea, let's not go all crazy with ego trips. i think my previous post sums up the idea enough, no?

 

Yeah, and that rookie would prolly shave a good second off his lap times if he did double-clutch; what a looser!

You are completely correct on all your points UFO, but for some reason, I just don't think you're going to get through to plokivos. He's obviously a way better driver than any of the lame mitsu team drivers, and he has tons of track time under his belt.

I am kind of intersted to see if he can show us these vids he's talking about where all these pros are double-clutching.

 

A couple of things to add:

1. You can't even compare the shifting technique in most racecars to streetcars. Most race cars will have straight cut gear with dog rings also known as a dog box. And if you are a good enough driver you can shift them up and down all day long without even using the clutch and they wiil take the abuse.

2. In a modern car there is no reason to double clutch. If anything it is slowing down your shifting. Plus your are cycling the clutch in and out way more than neccessary which over time could weaken the clutch springs not to mention the friction material is engaging and disengaging more than frequently than it needs to. How is this saving your clutch?

3. Not to bash anyone here but, I've seen quite a few posts from Plokivos that lets just say left me scratching my head at the least. If you don't know about something don't talk about it just to talk about it. There are a lot of people on here who come to learn, looking for facts and the "right" way to do something. All the BS just confuses people and leaves them with more questions than when they came.

Oh and not to toot my horn here but, this is coming from someone who was a performance driving instructor and is a racecar mechanic and fabricator. So don't give me the " how many miles do you have on a race track" bit.

 

you guys are just recycling this discussion.

and half of you didn't even read the whole thread and start to talk about it with half read information.

obvious someone need to go back to import atlanta where they belong.

just goto a track, find a pro driver and ask them about the benefit and disadvantage of double clutching and etc.

and you're right, most pro drivers don't need to double clutch, because they have the sequential triptronic transmission that double clutches or rev matches the rpm for them when they shift.

the reason I've posted the double wet type transmission for the chrysler super car is that it's already got the f-1 based transmission built into it where it rev matches faster than you could blink.

Please, don't post your own made up opinion in here. and read or talk to someone about this topic. Someone who's knowledgeable in this topic. and talk to few of them.

 

Plokivos, I find many of your posts highly entertaining. I'm not normally a person who likes to point out others faults; however, that statement really shows your ignorance.

Happy posting.

 

scotty, with that post, not only you show your class on how inefficient your posts are but just shows how small of a person you are.

To clarify what I was saying, of course you could do double clutch rev match without the syncros. That's how it started out, because the earlier cars didn't have syncros.

but what I was saying it the syncros do help when rev matching by performing double clutch.


also, like I said, instead of attacking me with your antics and groupie bs, just go talk to few people who drive for a living.

also, if you search for evo 9 video, there is a factory mitsubishi driver driving and testing the new evo 9.

that was the video that I was refering to. Not the factory race car driving.

he double clutch, brake tap before cornering and he does toe and heel with double clutching.

so go check it out and come back to me with a proof on what you said. I posted some sites that you could see why you need double clutch and why people do it.

not any of you showed any sort of proof to backup what you're saying.

Otherwise your post just looks like any other dumb posts without meaning out there.

 

Uh what's with all the fuzz guys??? After reading this thread, well the first couple page anyways I decided to head out and practice a little. Yes its about 23:45 right now and I just got back from trying out the Heel and Toe technique about 15 min. ago. Ok I was out getting gas in the middle of the night. And man was I impressed. I first try downshifting without braking like some of you have mentioned and it was alright. it felt smooth, although I didn't release the clutch out too fast. About 1/3 of a sec was almost right. so after a few tries I thought I was ready to move on to the real deal. Braking and toe downshifting. Turns out great, well I mess up a few time. I guess I sorta mastered it or so I guess. I even tried downshifting from 5th to 4th to 3rd and so fourth. The result seems friendly. Thanx guys for the tips. I'll be sure to be using the heel and toe tech. more often. Although that I'm quite familar with this technique, I still can't quite shift smoothly from first to second gear. Maybe second is not for everyone, well for me atleast.

 

Does Jeff Gordon or Jimmie Johnson count as a pro driver? Beacause I know for a fact neither of them double clutch and we don't have a tiptronic trans. which I believe is actually an automatic without a clutch not like an SMG.

 

No, Plokivos does not consider NASCAR to be legit. motorsports.

I don’t need to talk to anyone, or watch a video to learn how to shift. My comments are based on years and years of personal experience in all kinds of cars.

The point of all this fancy footwork when downshifting is to switch from a higher gear to a lower gear without upsetting the balance of the car. Brake-clutch-rev-shift-clutch out. The quicker and smoother you do it the better. Trying to double clutch just makes it that much harder and takes longer.

Its even easier in a light non-syncro car, like a formula ford. Pull it out of gear-rev-select lower gear, no clutch needed at all. Was that what you meant when you said you cant double clutch/heel and toe with out syncros?


I've gone back and read your post a couple of times (If English is not your first language, please just say so) If you are saying that the syncros in a transmission perform the same action as double clutching, then you are sort of correct.

This is going to get complicated, but I will try to explain something. Let’s think about the car going down the road. The engine is turning a certain speed which continues through the clutch and the input shaft of the transmission. All these parts are turning at the speed of the engine. At the gearbox the engine speed is converted to the road speed by the gears. From that point the output shaft in the transmission and all the rest of the drivetrain are all spinning at a different speed.

What happens to the engine speed if we shift form a high gear to a lower gear? We all know the answer: the engine speeds up. But what is happening inside the gearbox? First we press the clutch. The clutch releases the input shaft of the transmission from the engine, so it is free to spin independently. Before we shift out of gear it is still connected to the output of the transmission by what ever gear we were in. Now we go to neutral, both the input and output of the transmission are now free. This is where the magic happens. As we select the lower gear the synchronizer causes the input shaft of the transmission to speed up so the two gears can come together at the same speed. It synchronizes the relative speed between the output shaft and the input shaft.

Now, let’s talk about different techniques, why you would use them, and what happens. What is happening when we double clutch? You engage the clutch to take the transmission out of gear. While in neutral you release the clutch, which reconnects the engine to the input shaft of the transmission. You rev the engine which speeds up the input shaft of the transmission to where it will be when you engage the lower gear. Then you engage the clutch again to slip into the lower gear. This is where you can get the idea that syncros perform the same action as double clutching. Both of them speed up the input shaft of the transmission so that the gears can engage smoothly. Double clutching is a hold over from old school transmissions it is simply something that we don’t need to do anymore.

So what’s all this heel and toe rev matching down shifting about? Simply put, smoothness. You are going down the road, you engage the clutch and release the gas. Shift to a lower gear, release the clutch and what happens? The engine has to come up to the RPMs for the lower gear which causes the car to lurch and buck. If you blip the gas before you release the clutch every thing is much smoother because the engine RPM is matched to the speed of the drive train. We heel and toe on the track because we have to accomplish several things at once. We have to use the clutch while using the brakes while simultaneously revving the engine. This would require 3 feet, so instead we reach over to the throttle with the same foot we have on the brake peddle to rev the engine. So: brake-clutch-rev-shift-release clutch. That is heel and toe. It keeps the car from becoming unbalanced due to the engine having to speed back up when you release the clutch.

Double clutching is a thing of the past which we can forget with some exceptions, like a broken transmission.

This post has been a hour out of my life, and I could still talk about more stuff. Questions anyone?

 

You should only do 2-1 heel toe downshift in emergency or race type situations, it is much tougher on the syncros then any other gear because you do not have as many mesh points per second per se..

I have been using this method since I learned to drive stick, I think it is very effective and easier on the tranny..I even do it on my motorcycle which is alot more difficult and I have it mastered 100% now.
Just don't feel like you need to learn it in a hurry, in time it will come and become 2nd nature..
FYI double clutching is more for non syncronized and broken gearboxes..

 

"No, Plokivos does not consider NASCAR to be legit. motorsports. "

all i had to do is read this comment not to read anymore of that post.

like I said many many many times before, it's up to you how you drive. I'm not going to argue with you anymore.

You do what you do, I do what i do on my driving. I have no problem with my driving skills, they're smooth on corners and lane changes at high speed, and I like that transition.

It's embedded in me that I can't just shift without double clutch or rev match anymore.

anyway, whatever you want, do it, but try not to force things on people like many of you do.

I do that just because I feel compelled to let you know that most drivers I know who knows what they're doing, who's agile enough and comfortable in high speed driving or technical driving does what i do and that's how I learn how to drive... from jap track videos, with in foot and in tech PIP cameras.

This has been discussed in all the forums I've been to since 91. it never goes anywhere, because everyone drives differently and everyone thinks their way of driving is better for some reason.

I'm trying to make sure to let you know, all those threads that I wasn't involved before, at the end a pro driver comes in and tells them that double clutching, trail braking, left foot braking and brake tap, ect are valuable tools in technical driving and they do it because it shaves a 5th of a second or more on their driving or it gives them more of a stability in turns and driving.

Just prove me wrong, because you can't. There isn't a data tested to prove that you don't need it or you need it. They always vary (such as track time).

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=119741

I think this maybe the video of the new evo IX driven at the track. if it's yellow, that's not the vid.. my bad.

it's the long evo 9 video that's driven at the german track. first at autobahn, then at the track.

can't really check at work...

 

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ghlight=evo+ix

ok this is the video.

look at the foot work please.

 

Where are you from? Half of what you are saying makes no sense.

WTF does double clutching or heel/toe have to do with highspeed lane changes?

Prove you wrong on what? That some people double clutch. Some people do double clutch.

The arguement is that unless you have cooked your synchros or your driving something with a trans. out of a tractor you don't need to.

Check out the sport compact car with the JGTC Z on the cover they have a nice little article about this conversation in there.

 

If you do it right, the car shouldn't buck at all.

 

Sorry to point this out, but the I didn't see any double clutching in that video. Just some good heel and toe action.

To quote Napoleon Dynamite "duh, Idiot..."