althemean, this is why i made the other post about what u said about dragging the brakes, and that's why i went into the long explanation about percentages. From ur post it looked like u were missing the key idea - braking and turning have to overlap and smoothly transition from former to latter.
chronohunter, since u haven't commented about any of my posts, i'm assuming u agree with the way i described things? Especially since in ur posts u too describe those concepts (just in shorter form, as i tend to go for long winded explanations, so that hopefully EVERYONE will understand). I've read many of ur posts and i always value ur expertise, so i'm curious what comments u may have. thanks

 

This is the best explantation yet. I think I was leaving out the part about releasing the brakes gradually as I was rolling on the throttle and feeding in the steering input. I just go too caught up in trying to do an oversimplified definition.

 

No.....just not explaning it as well as I thought I was. Chrono cleared that up. We actually came to an agreement! Amazing!

 

Gotcha. This is a good thing. U seem to be on the opposite end from me - ur explanations r too short, mine r too long haha. But at least there's agreement between everyone.

 

yes and very nice job, the only thing I read that was a little suspect was a comment about the actual point of brake release. You said after it you could now use 100% for cornering which it true but is also implying that cornering in this state would be better. We know though the this is actually where the understeer will start if we are now stuck in steady state due to the corner being too long, or our line being wrong for this car. The idea is at the actual point of trail brake release to be starting to simultaneously be feeding in throttle and releasing steering. So you trail brake all the way till we're ready to accelerate out (usually that means we are pointing at the apex). That is if we don't want to understeer . The goal is to find the line around the course the minimises the steady state time for the car this will be the quickest in the EVO. You will have people come up to you and say "man my car is pushing like a pig!" and you just smirk and think "amateurs!" Remember understeer is not "the limit of the car" but a mistake from the driver typically caused by an excessively fast entry or a too slow entry which tempted them to accelerate too hard too soon (with too much steering left in the car).

This brings up the point about the "goodness" of the EVO platform, this car has such a linear and delicate feel during trail braking (especially when equipped with Vishnu suspension!... shameless plug ) that makes it a brilliant communicator. You can adjust the EVO with a real precision that is missing from anything else unless you get into M3/911 territory

 

Chrono, do you left foot brake at all in the Evo? When and under what circumstances? I've heard from a few formula drivers (cars that you don't have to use the clutch in order to shift) that left foot braking is extremly advantagous, but in the Evo, we do have to use the clutch (although at my last track day I found myself shifting without the clutch becuase I was too busy doing other "stuff"!). I can see where mid-corner it might be useful to help balance the car and get the turbo spooled up before you actually want to accelerate...

What do you think?

Btw, thanks for all the input! Learning from someone as knowledgable as you is certainly an awesome benefit to users of this forum.

 

chronohunter, i never thought about that part. Releasing right at the apex. Would that be necessary for 50/50 weight cars also (if they also have neutral setup)? What if i release some time before the apex and then engine brake the rest of the way to apex, then roll on throttle from there? Would engine braking be considered trailbraking, just without using brake pedal?

What's really interesting though, is that most of us probably heard the classic philosophy "don't brake and turn at the same time" when we first started out. I know i have. Then there's the concept of the classic racing line...In the real world those 2 concepts get changed drastically and trailbraking, late/early apex line come into play. So is there ever time when someone won't need to trailbrake or use late apex to go around the corner the fastest? Let's assume that we're not trying to setup the car for the next corner.

 

As always, Paul can correct me if I am wrong...



Engine braking is not considered trail braking. If you are simply "coasting down" through the corner, then in most cases, you are not at the limit of grip. In cornering you want one of thing things: Braking, steady state even throttle, or acceleration. I know this is over simplified, and hopefully Paul will expand on the basic idea.

(I have read every post in this thread by the way)

 

Trail braking simply means braking while turning. That's about as nutshell as you can get it. Varying the time you are on the brakes and the force is all subject the many variables that go into racing.

 

exactly

 

the answer to the LFB thing is sometimes. I use it for long sweeping corners where there is a lot of unavoidable steady state cornering to keep the line tight with the car, it will help you minimise understeer. I use it a lot in the snow for the same reason on all different types of corners (not just the long ones). You can feel it in the snow it work a lot like having all limited slip diffs (my 03 doesn't). Be careful though there is quite the learning curve with LFBing and you will actually be slower for a good long while till the finesse comes.

 

it's not releasing "right at the apex" it's releasing when you are pointed at the apex which is typically 10-15 feet before it (on a road course), you are just now thinking of releasing the wheel (if your line is correct) and applying throttle.

The 50/50 car loves steady state a will pull big numbers g wise around a skidpad so it won't need as much trail brake as our cars.

You can have a coast phase when you are floating/rotating the car into position. You can also create oversteer with just lift off of the gas as I'm sure you have experienced (used for a corner that doesn't require braking) often called "trailing throttle oversteer or TTO. It is not technically trail braking but on an AWD car is can do the same basic thing but to a lesser extent.

nice job all

 

gotcha. i missed the "pointed" part. so trailbraking does end BEFORE the apex, then.

Now, a bit off topic (still autox related), but i always seem to have trouble remembering the damn course. All the cones in my eyes seem to confuse me. I know to look at least 2 gates ahead when driving, but it's the actual course layout that i seem to have trouble remembering, even after i walk it like 6 times. So in the end, i seem to be only reacting to gates as i'm coming up on them, instead of anticipating them and remembering the line i have worked out prior to driving it. I've never driven on a road course, but when i play games like Gran Turismo or Colin Mcrae Rally, i have no problem remembering the course after a few laps or simply following pace notes. I think it's because there's more time between corners, so my memory has enough time to remember how that corner looks and what i did or want to do for it. I haven't autox'ed the evo yet and i fear it'll be even worse in it, because being the faster car, it will reach the next corner even sooner than i'm used to. Does anyone else ever have this problem? It seems that i eventually get used to it, but not as quickly as i would like. Any tips on dealing with this "mental block"?

 

It sounds like you need to learn to visualize the run. It is the key to success in autocrossing (or for my 8 year old son ski racing). Since you don't have time to drive and learn you have to have it down during your walk around(s). First thing is don't do the walk around with anyone else, get away from the herd and don't talk to anyone walk the line you want and stop along the way looking forward and back at key points, and here is the trick, you must see yourself in you car at full speed carving through that section over and over while you stand there till you are comfortable. overlap each section a little with the next section so there are no gaps. When you are done walk over to the start and look at the course. Take your hand and hold it vertically a foot in front of your face (it is the car), now do a run in your head with you hand doing the movement of the car for the complete run. You can also stand in the middle of the course and do this as an intermediate step if the course is really big or confusing (where ever you need to in other words). End up though doing a complete run from the start line in you head. Then test yourself while you watch other cars run before you try to stay ahead of the car that's running imagining you are driving it until it's your turn. next step...KICK A**

 

If you're still reacing to gates or other course elements, then you are still not looking far enough ahead. Nothing should suprise you on course.

Try to relax in grid and right before your run. Try to picture the course walk in your head. And then again after you've ran, just sit in your car with your eyes closed and try re-play your run in your head.

I feel course memorization is one of the most critical parts to this sport.
That's about all I can come up with.