trail braking
Originally Posted by jcnel_evo8
Ok...so here's probably a question that might have to go in a different thread, but I'll put it here for now.
Paul (or others so-inclined to answer)... what do you feel for on initial turn-in after hard braking is done to know the car is going to do what you want it to do mid-corner, and coming out?
Thanks,
jcnel.
Paul (or others so-inclined to answer)... what do you feel for on initial turn-in after hard braking is done to know the car is going to do what you want it to do mid-corner, and coming out?
Thanks,
jcnel.
The entry is the most critical phase of the corner, it determains the balance of the car so it takes a "set" in the corner and efficiently rotates towards the apex at this point as long as the driver dosen't jump on the throttle too hard too soon the car should continue to carve throuh the turn, you hands should be opening (unwinding the wheel) as you pass the apex this will allow you to pile on more power for a solid drive out.
The use of measured trail brake on the entry can allow the driver to fine tune the yaw rate for any corner (again the slower the corner the more trail brake used). it is simply the rate of brake release, developing a feel for how to release the brakes is one of the fine arts of driving. This fine tuning is the key to an efficient transition from braking to cornering.
The analogy I use most often is a skier learning to make the skis carve for the first time instead of skidding. It is learning to control were you put the pressure on the ski. Front to initiate the turn balanced mid-corner and to the rear on the exit for acceleration out. Works on a snowboard as well. Hope that helps!
Originally Posted by hagakure
the internet SUCKS as a forum for trying to express anything of any emotional depth or congruence, because everything that is conveyed has a fatalistic sort of determinance that generally provokes animosity. I'm finding this out in a personal manner due to some ill advised reponses I have posted myself. Emotion and the internet is a bad thing, I'm as guilty as anybody when it comes to succumbing to the perils of arguing in cyberspace.
Percy
Percy
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Yep, the internet is a hard place to have a deep/difficult discussion.
For somebody new to the track, the biggest things to do are the basics. It cannot be said enough to LOOK AHEAD.
I often tell my students to try to look "over the apex to the track-out." If possible try to glance at the apex and track-out even before the braking point. Granted many corners won't allow it, but the sooner you see, and really know where the track-out is the better you'll know how much to slow, and then how early and how hard you can get on the throttle.
As for what to feel on the way in, you should be feeling how much and how long you need to be on the brakes, or really when you can be releasing the brakes to be set up for making your late-apex. Then you should be feeling for how much throttle the car will hold without releasing the "pressure" on one end of the car.
For the most part (when you have been doing it for while) there is no such thing as a snap spin or a surprise loss of front grip. If you are sensitive, you should be able to feel as the pressure on the steering wheel peaks, and starts to fall off. That is the first signal that the front has crested its grip limit. With the rear you will feel the "pressure" holding the tail behind you start to reduce. That signals that you are cresting the limit of the rear.
I must admit, I am starting to give away some of the stuff I usually charge for
The best free driving advice ever given is to read at least Going Faster. That should be a pre-requisite for discussing driving techniques Seriously, read at least that one, or read them all. If the size or the $23 on Amazon for Going Faster intimidates you, try Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley. It's $11 on Amazon and a little book.
Peace,
For somebody new to the track, the biggest things to do are the basics. It cannot be said enough to LOOK AHEAD.
I often tell my students to try to look "over the apex to the track-out." If possible try to glance at the apex and track-out even before the braking point. Granted many corners won't allow it, but the sooner you see, and really know where the track-out is the better you'll know how much to slow, and then how early and how hard you can get on the throttle.
As for what to feel on the way in, you should be feeling how much and how long you need to be on the brakes, or really when you can be releasing the brakes to be set up for making your late-apex. Then you should be feeling for how much throttle the car will hold without releasing the "pressure" on one end of the car.
For the most part (when you have been doing it for while) there is no such thing as a snap spin or a surprise loss of front grip. If you are sensitive, you should be able to feel as the pressure on the steering wheel peaks, and starts to fall off. That is the first signal that the front has crested its grip limit. With the rear you will feel the "pressure" holding the tail behind you start to reduce. That signals that you are cresting the limit of the rear.
I must admit, I am starting to give away some of the stuff I usually charge for
The best free driving advice ever given is to read at least Going Faster. That should be a pre-requisite for discussing driving techniques
Seriously, read at least that one, or read them all. If the size or the $23 on Amazon for Going Faster intimidates you, try Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley. It's $11 on Amazon and a little book.Peace,
Last edited by siegelracing; Aug 21, 2004 at 09:49 PM.
Originally Posted by siegelracing
Yep, the internet is a hard place to have a deep/difficult discussion.
For somebody new to the track, the biggest things to do are the basics. It cannot be said enough to LOOK AHEAD.
I often tell my students to try to look "over the apex to the track-out." If possible try to glance at the apex and track-out even before the braking point. Granted many corners won't allow it, but the sooner you see, and really know where the track-out is the better you'll know how much to slow, and then how early and how hard you can get on the throttle.
As for what to feel on the way in, you should be feeling how much and how long you need to be on the brakes, or really when you can be releasing the brakes to be set up for making your late-apex. Then you should be feeling for how much throttle the car will hold without releasing the "pressure" on one end of the car.
For the most part (when you have been doing it for while) there is no such thing as a snap spin or a surprise loss of front grip. If you are sensitive, you should be able to feel as the pressure on the steering wheel peaks, and starts to fall off. That is the first signal that the front has crested its grip limit. With the rear you will feel the "pressure" holding the tail behind you start to reduce. That signals that you are cresting the limit of the rear.
I must admit, I am starting to give away some of the stuff I usually charge for
The best free driving advice ever given is to read at least Going Faster. That should be a pre-requisite for discussing driving techniques Seriously, read at least that one, or read them all. If the size or the $23 on Amazon for Going Faster intimidates you, try Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley. It's $11 on Amazon and a little book.
Peace,
For somebody new to the track, the biggest things to do are the basics. It cannot be said enough to LOOK AHEAD.
I often tell my students to try to look "over the apex to the track-out." If possible try to glance at the apex and track-out even before the braking point. Granted many corners won't allow it, but the sooner you see, and really know where the track-out is the better you'll know how much to slow, and then how early and how hard you can get on the throttle.
As for what to feel on the way in, you should be feeling how much and how long you need to be on the brakes, or really when you can be releasing the brakes to be set up for making your late-apex. Then you should be feeling for how much throttle the car will hold without releasing the "pressure" on one end of the car.
For the most part (when you have been doing it for while) there is no such thing as a snap spin or a surprise loss of front grip. If you are sensitive, you should be able to feel as the pressure on the steering wheel peaks, and starts to fall off. That is the first signal that the front has crested its grip limit. With the rear you will feel the "pressure" holding the tail behind you start to reduce. That signals that you are cresting the limit of the rear.
I must admit, I am starting to give away some of the stuff I usually charge for
The best free driving advice ever given is to read at least Going Faster. That should be a pre-requisite for discussing driving techniques
Seriously, read at least that one, or read them all. If the size or the $23 on Amazon for Going Faster intimidates you, try Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley. It's $11 on Amazon and a little book.Peace,
That is why I always recommend loads of safe repeatable skid-pad work before ever going out on the "big" track. All aspects of fundamental car control can be taught there without any consequences for mistakes. People car learn exactly what causes understeer and oversteer (hint: it's not the car). What trail braking does, string theory (blending of controls or how to transition). Students who take the time to do this first learn quicker, are safer and considerably faster initially (and over time). The driver must know that they can catch the slide (if it happens) without thinking, this allows them to concentrate on planning there next moves.
The race track is a very dangerous unforgiving place to learn car-control skills because of this students are forever worried about whether the corner that they are in is about to go horribly wrong (holding their breath, death grip on the wheel are good symptoms of this happening). When the car control skills are in place the driver is relaxed able to talk (!) and will naturally start looking ahead and planning corners (and that is a much happier car to be in!)
Originally Posted by chronohunter
The one point to add to that Scott is that a new driver cannot simultaneously feel the car and look ahead. The most common reason for guys not to look far enough down the road is because they are too busy "feeling" things that are happening to the car at that moment.
That is why I always recommend loads of safe repeatable skid-pad work before ever going out on the "big" track. All aspects of fundamental car control can be taught there without any consequences for mistakes. People car learn exactly what causes understeer and oversteer (hint: it's not the car). What trail braking does, string theory (blending of controls or how to transition). Students who take the time to do this first learn quicker, are safer and considerably faster initially (and over time). The driver must know that they can catch the slide (if it happens) without thinking, this allows them to concentrate on planning there next moves.
The race track is a very dangerous unforgiving place to learn car-control skills because of this students are forever worried about whether the corner that they are in is about to go horribly wrong (holding their breath, death grip on the wheel are good symptoms of this happening). When the car control skills are in place the driver is relaxed able to talk (!) and will naturally start looking ahead and planning corners (and that is a much happier car to be in!)
That is why I always recommend loads of safe repeatable skid-pad work before ever going out on the "big" track. All aspects of fundamental car control can be taught there without any consequences for mistakes. People car learn exactly what causes understeer and oversteer (hint: it's not the car). What trail braking does, string theory (blending of controls or how to transition). Students who take the time to do this first learn quicker, are safer and considerably faster initially (and over time). The driver must know that they can catch the slide (if it happens) without thinking, this allows them to concentrate on planning there next moves.
The race track is a very dangerous unforgiving place to learn car-control skills because of this students are forever worried about whether the corner that they are in is about to go horribly wrong (holding their breath, death grip on the wheel are good symptoms of this happening). When the car control skills are in place the driver is relaxed able to talk (!) and will naturally start looking ahead and planning corners (and that is a much happier car to be in!)
Where can you find opportunities in norcal to just get out on a skidpad with an instructor? I think one reason why a lot of guys learn on the track first is that you can get out onthe track with NASA, etc with and "instructor" in car for relatively cheaply vs. the high cost of many driving schools. It would be cool to have some sort of skid pad focused instructional training that was reasonable in cost and easily available.
Percy
Originally Posted by hagakure
Where can you find opportunities in norcal to just get out on a skidpad with an instructor? I think one reason why a lot of guys learn on the track first is that you can get out onthe track with NASA, etc with and "instructor" in car for relatively cheaply vs. the high cost of many driving schools. It would be cool to have some sort of skid pad focused instructional training that was reasonable in cost and easily available.
Percy
Percy
They should do a demo first of the common mistakes: adding steering for understeer (instead of removing throttle or light brake for big understeer and a slight momentary relaxing of the wheel) and for oversteer: no steering (spin), too slow steering (lazy spin), looking to the outside (hook spin or slide), not getting out of the throttle quick enough (another way to lazy spin and maybe a huge hook slide), getting back on the throttle too soon (also hook or "tank slapper" into a spin) etc..
There are more nuances but that’s the idea. It's about rewiring our bad instincts (that we all have). Everyone goes through all the mistakes in a natural progression while learning. It is cool to watch them figure it all out (and realize how non-instinctual it all unfortunately is). The skid pad is the only safe and controlled environment to do this. It is also massive fun and the only solid foundation there is for fast safe driving period. Even if you have don many many track days we can all benefit from some serious skid pad time. Your confidence level will soar your stress level will dive as you actual drive quicker and safer
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The track where I teach my 1 day Stage I schools is a "motorcycle track." Apparently to be truly defined as a motorcycle track you have to have MASSIVE runoff without hard barriers. There are a number of "motorcycle tracks" around the country and they are my strongest suggestion of where to learn.
I also put the students in the skidpad early in the day.
For those that have never played in a skidpad two sessions of 5 or 10 minutes will teach you FAR more about car control than 2 full track days.
As for being able to feel the car and look ahead, it's true that a student by themselves is going to be way overwhelmed by all the stimuli their first time on the track. Paul, I'm sure you know, but for those of you wanting to learn, that's where an instructor is just SO invaluable. To have somebody in the car with you who can remind you to look up before you braking point, and to look for track-out as early as possible, just makes your track time SO much more valuable.
If you look, you should be able to find a track, or a scca school that has a skidpad...
I also put the students in the skidpad early in the day.
For those that have never played in a skidpad two sessions of 5 or 10 minutes will teach you FAR more about car control than 2 full track days.
As for being able to feel the car and look ahead, it's true that a student by themselves is going to be way overwhelmed by all the stimuli their first time on the track. Paul, I'm sure you know, but for those of you wanting to learn, that's where an instructor is just SO invaluable. To have somebody in the car with you who can remind you to look up before you braking point, and to look for track-out as early as possible, just makes your track time SO much more valuable.
If you look, you should be able to find a track, or a scca school that has a skidpad...
Originally Posted by chronohunter
Not sure were or how much in your areas. Most tracks do have them because they are used for almost any type of school. You just have to ask the track or the sanctioning body of the track day if a skidpad is available. You do need an instructor to get you going. Some tracks have dedicated skidpad cars (so you don’t have to get yours dirty). I would get your car out there in the end so you can see where it differs from the training car.
They should do a demo first of the common mistakes: adding steering for understeer (instead of removing throttle or light brake for big understeer and a slight momentary relaxing of the wheel) and for oversteer: no steering (spin), too slow steering (lazy spin), looking to the outside (hook spin or slide), not getting out of the throttle quick enough (another way to lazy spin and maybe a huge hook slide), getting back on the throttle too soon (also hook or "tank slapper" into a spin) etc..
There are more nuances but that’s the idea. It's about rewiring our bad instincts (that we all have). Everyone goes through all the mistakes in a natural progression while learning. It is cool to watch them figure it all out (and realize how non-instinctual it all unfortunately is). The skid pad is the only safe and controlled environment to do this. It is also massive fun and the only solid foundation there is for fast safe driving period. Even if you have don many many track days we can all benefit from some serious skid pad time. Your confidence level will soar your stress level will dive as you actual drive quicker and safer
They should do a demo first of the common mistakes: adding steering for understeer (instead of removing throttle or light brake for big understeer and a slight momentary relaxing of the wheel) and for oversteer: no steering (spin), too slow steering (lazy spin), looking to the outside (hook spin or slide), not getting out of the throttle quick enough (another way to lazy spin and maybe a huge hook slide), getting back on the throttle too soon (also hook or "tank slapper" into a spin) etc..
There are more nuances but that’s the idea. It's about rewiring our bad instincts (that we all have). Everyone goes through all the mistakes in a natural progression while learning. It is cool to watch them figure it all out (and realize how non-instinctual it all unfortunately is). The skid pad is the only safe and controlled environment to do this. It is also massive fun and the only solid foundation there is for fast safe driving period. Even if you have don many many track days we can all benefit from some serious skid pad time. Your confidence level will soar your stress level will dive as you actual drive quicker and safer
Thanks for the input Paul.
It seems that there wuld be something to be gained by organizing skid-pad only 2-4 hour instructional classes at soem of the tracks, I think a lot of people new to high performance driving would benefit, and it could be another commodity of the tracks and schools. Especially given the relative explosion of track day participation. Thanks again.
Percy Howard
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Aaaah Paul, you beat me to it, this dang tap-keyboard or on the pocket-pc . I'm over at the family's place and they only have dial-up, so I'm using the ppc and cell phone to surf.
If there are enough interested, we might be able to do a 'more students, more basics' school here at Talladega Gran Prix, where they have a beautiful 40+ foot wide 300 foot skidpad. Plus a decreasing radius corner, combo corners, a sweeper and a flat and banked carousel.
. I'm over at the family's place and they only have dial-up, so I'm using the ppc and cell phone to surf.If there are enough interested, we might be able to do a 'more students, more basics' school here at Talladega Gran Prix, where they have a beautiful 40+ foot wide 300 foot skidpad. Plus a decreasing radius corner, combo corners, a sweeper and a flat and banked carousel.
Last edited by siegelracing; Aug 22, 2004 at 10:40 AM.
Originally Posted by robi
so a typical corner is heavy late straight braking off brake turn on throttle all prety much wit one motion (heal and toe has the foot on both pedals so you dont lose any time/coast here soo I've already got the car rotated deep into the first part of the corner and stop the rotation by progressive throttle application (I can alter the cars mid corner attitude by over 30 degrees with throttle alone) keeping the car free DRIVING off the corner with a slight push but preventing the AWD system from binding up or even worse getting out of the throttle in a car with too much rear grip as it starts to swing the tail out...
You are not losing any time here.
It is the type 1 (low speed) and type 2 (med speed) that the looseness of your set-up demands that you are on the throttle at turn that the car could be quicker. please remember that because there is additional vertical load added by the driver the sliding is minimized on turn in and the rotation towards the apex is super quick an efficient and as mentioned before the entry speed is higher. Your braking can be later (because entry speed is higher and a little braking is done in the corner). Because you manage the sliding the tire temps are managed as long as you are successfully killing the understeer.
All I would suggest is reducing a little toe (out) in the rear and try this on you next track day. See if you like it. Give yourself time to adapt and monitor tire temps and look at all the data and lemme' know what you thought.
Type 1,2 and 3 corners all should be driven differently by the driver:
Type 1 (up to ~top of second gear) heavy trail brake all the within 1 car length of the apex pick up light throttle as you start unwinding the wheel and pass the apex progressivly accelerating towards the exit
Type 2 (3-~lower 4th gear) moderate to light trail brake (as speed goes up) max is about half way form turn in to apex acceleration is the same as above it just starts eariler in the corner
Type 3 (~mid 4th gear and above) all braking done before the corner, back on light even throttle at turn in, feeding throttle progressively through corner.
This style takes advantage of the natural low speed understeer of cars like the EVO insuring each corner type is maximized.
Originally Posted by siegelracing
For those that have never played in a skidpad two sessions of 5 or 10 minutes will teach you FAR more about car control than 2 full track days.
...
...
Originally Posted by robi
I still think (no know) adding grip to a tire (and then using it) adds more heat to that tire's system as you continue to do this it overheats....the only cure is to balance the car for a given track but er on the little bit too loose... BTW have you seen the AERO on the front of my car? (or the rear for that matter? We develope better than 300lbs of downforce by 100 mph with the bias towards the front and then dial the rear wing in to "plant the rear" in high speed corners
This make no sense as far as you reoccurring tire temp argument against trail braking
Trail braking is "down force" for low speed corners where your wings don't work!
I noticed on your aero parts post that you were still adjusting the angle of the wings hi/low speed behavior
The ONLY downforce a wing provides at low speed is it's own weight (
)
Paul,
If you had to pick a California Track to instruct newbies like me and low intermediates, which one is best? Keep in mind most of us live in Socal. SOW, Buttonwillow, Thunderhill, etc. Would the cost be super high or could we keep it resonable? I will be there.
If you had to pick a California Track to instruct newbies like me and low intermediates, which one is best? Keep in mind most of us live in Socal. SOW, Buttonwillow, Thunderhill, etc. Would the cost be super high or could we keep it resonable? I will be there.