Case study # 77 - SAFC vs. FLASH
Originally Posted by MM Racing
Yeah except for when I want to run race gas. Are you going to come flash it every time I go to the track and need it leaned out for race fuel?
^^ Can this be addressed?
Al I am by no means knocking what you do or your product, I think the flashes are cool an a great product for someone that can just go along with what the ECO says. But before flashes DSM's had been going low 12's with the AFC with no problems.
The best of both worlds would likely be the AFC and flash combo to accomadate my race fuel question where advanced timing and lean condition is not a big deal when on C16.
The best of both worlds would likely be the AFC and flash combo to accomadate my race fuel question where advanced timing and lean condition is not a big deal when on C16.
Flashes are probably the best tuning tool there is....only problem is that its not adjustable by the end user for different applications.
That is why i prefer a GOOD piggyback over the flash....for its diversity and adjustability. Not to mention ability to log and other functions that you cannot get with a flash. I do, however, think the AFC is not a particularly good piggyback. A couple years ago they were, but a lot has changed in the tuning world.
That is why i prefer a GOOD piggyback over the flash....for its diversity and adjustability. Not to mention ability to log and other functions that you cannot get with a flash. I do, however, think the AFC is not a particularly good piggyback. A couple years ago they were, but a lot has changed in the tuning world.
Soo your saying that the DSM ECU somehow uses magic to calculate the fuel and timing curves for the as where the EVO ECU uses the MAS and the MAP and the knock sensor. I really do not understand how you can make such a blanket comment like that.
They both calculate boost and fuel and timing based on the same things, there might me more overall MAP choices that it has to switch between but the general basis of calculating air flow and thus fuel and timing is the same. But I digress as to not crap up this thread anymore.
They both calculate boost and fuel and timing based on the same things, there might me more overall MAP choices that it has to switch between but the general basis of calculating air flow and thus fuel and timing is the same. But I digress as to not crap up this thread anymore.
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by MM Racing
Al I am by no means knocking what you do or your product, I think the flashes are cool an a great product for someone that can just go along with what the ECO says. But before flashes DSM's had been going low 12's with the AFC with no problems.
The best of both worlds would likely be the AFC and flash combo to accomadate my race fuel question where advanced timing and lean condition is not a big deal when on C16.
The best of both worlds would likely be the AFC and flash combo to accomadate my race fuel question where advanced timing and lean condition is not a big deal when on C16.
The point of the flash is that in the right hands it gives you a much borader power band - signifidcantly more tq and near stock like reliability
The fact that the flash is only $199 is just icing on the cake
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I thought that the question about the effectiveness of a safc vs a flash was resolved a long time ago but it seems that entire carrers in tuning are being made on SAFC tuning
I will post more data on the SAFC vs. Flash discussion later - for now I just want to post the sheet
BR Stage 2 - 21 psi - 93 octane
I will post more data on the SAFC vs. Flash discussion later - for now I just want to post the sheet
BR Stage 2 - 21 psi - 93 octane
Really looked at it.
From what I understand EcuTek will have a dual map setup for the Evo very shortly if not already. I will find out once I get off line. Similar to the Software available for the Subbies. It will allow the end user to change maps on the fly for various driving patterns or events.
I will find out for SURE and then let everyone know.
Also,
As far as the DSM's are concerned they may be able to run 12's no problem, (LOL) but as Al mentioned already consistency was not there. Along with the following.....
Proper Idle characteristics
MAF Resolution and or accuracy without VPC or GM translator
Horrific timing retard
Horrible gas mileage
Poor drivability
Lucky to get her started sometimes.... and so on.
Too much to list.
We all had a DSM and can relate very easily
I used to think the safcII was half decent.. but the more I read the more I realize I need a full custom tune. As soon as I can afford to take a day or two off work and drive 500000 miles I'll be getting one 
Originally Posted by justchil
I used to think the safcII was half decent.. but the more I read the more I realize I need a full custom tune. As soon as I can afford to take a day or two off work and drive 500000 miles I'll be getting one
Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
Are you looking at the same dyno plots as I am? Do you see anything under the curve that smooth in its transition?
Using an AFC to tune a customers car for minimal mods is one thing, but to say that it would be prefered by anyone who has the ability to correct fuel and ignition curves in the stock program is rediculous.
I seriously DOUBT David Buschur or any credible tuner would rather use an AFC "piggyback" over a true EMS. UNLESS it would be for budget purposes or minor modification not to void warrantees.
True Reflashing has been on the horizon for the EVO for a short time.
You can't honestly tell me that you believe what you just posted.
Are you saying that AN AFC can "fine tune" a base Fuel map better than a software package that will allow access the addition or removal of fuel at designated points in the Curve?
All the while not indirectly affecting ignition timing?
You have got to be kidding me.
Using an AFC to tune a customers car for minimal mods is one thing, but to say that it would be prefered by anyone who has the ability to correct fuel and ignition curves in the stock program is rediculous.
I seriously DOUBT David Buschur or any credible tuner would rather use an AFC "piggyback" over a true EMS. UNLESS it would be for budget purposes or minor modification not to void warrantees.
True Reflashing has been on the horizon for the EVO for a short time.
You can't honestly tell me that you believe what you just posted.
Are you saying that AN AFC can "fine tune" a base Fuel map better than a software package that will allow access the addition or removal of fuel at designated points in the Curve?
All the while not indirectly affecting ignition timing?
You have got to be kidding me.
I have to agreed with you totally Precision Dyno.
I have friends or know people with Flash and it **** up there car. Besdie that. You can't just run one setting all the time. That's why i love the SAFC II. I can play with it. Different attitude will change the way the car run.. Most people here who are from Socal and went to LACR in Palm Dale which is above sea level. The car run like ****, what good is the flash?? SAFC have been around for very long time and i trust it.
I have one friend Got flash from Dynoflash, his car was bogging and acting up. HE call up or try to contact dyno flash. They always give a bull**** answer. So he talk to TurboTrix, they relash his ECU back to stock for free. All he got to do was paid for the shipping.
Another friend got FUEL cut out in LACR his car won't boost over 14 psi. As soon as we got back to where close to sea level the ran fine. I thought the Flash suppose to take out the fuel cut??
Last edited by vboy425; Aug 4, 2005 at 10:00 AM.
Originally Posted by vboy425
I have to agreed with you totally Precision Dyno.
I have friends or know people with Flash and it **** up there car. Besdie that. You can't just run one setting all the time. That's why i love the SAFC II. I can play with it. Different attitude will change the way the car run.. Most people here who are from Socal and went to LACR in Palm Dale which is above sea level. The car run like ****, what good is the flash?? SAFC have been around for very long time and i trust it.
I have one friend Got flash from Dynoflash, his car was bogging and acting up. HE call up or try to contact dyno flash. They always give a bull**** answer. So he talk to TurboTrix, they relash his ECU back to stock for free. All he got to do was paid for the shipping.
Another friend got FUEL cut out in LACR his car won't boost over 14 psi. As soon as we got back to where close to sea level the ran fine. I thought the Flash suppose to take out the fuel cut??
I have friends or know people with Flash and it **** up there car. Besdie that. You can't just run one setting all the time. That's why i love the SAFC II. I can play with it. Different attitude will change the way the car run.. Most people here who are from Socal and went to LACR in Palm Dale which is above sea level. The car run like ****, what good is the flash?? SAFC have been around for very long time and i trust it.
I have one friend Got flash from Dynoflash, his car was bogging and acting up. HE call up or try to contact dyno flash. They always give a bull**** answer. So he talk to TurboTrix, they relash his ECU back to stock for free. All he got to do was paid for the shipping.
Another friend got FUEL cut out in LACR his car won't boost over 14 psi. As soon as we got back to where close to sea level the ran fine. I thought the Flash suppose to take out the fuel cut??
I know what the EcuTek software can provide.
Period.
The symptoms you are describing do not sound like any I have heard of with the "EcuTek" software
Now I am not saying in any way that all flashes are the same. In fact they are not. I can only speak of what I am going to be familiar with.
Nor will I speak for anyone elses, TT, Works, Dyno flash and Many others.
I tried to prove my point but can't get thru......
I appreciate your comments and value them. But with my experience I can't justify using an AFC over the stock program tuned properly.
Mail flash $199, custom tune $399
SAFC II $200 and 2 maps custom tune $100, total: $300.
I would say SAFC best bang for bucks. Don't get wrong i would use the flash myself but for only two things which is the boost taper and maybe speed limiter. I work at a Mitsubisi dealer here in Socal. I have a lot of customer take their car to our service and wanted us to flash the ECU back to stock. The most common words came out of their mouth is "Flash my ECU is the worst $200 bucks and decision i have ever made" or "I shouldna get an SAFC"
SAFC II $200 and 2 maps custom tune $100, total: $300.
I would say SAFC best bang for bucks. Don't get wrong i would use the flash myself but for only two things which is the boost taper and maybe speed limiter. I work at a Mitsubisi dealer here in Socal. I have a lot of customer take their car to our service and wanted us to flash the ECU back to stock. The most common words came out of their mouth is "Flash my ECU is the worst $200 bucks and decision i have ever made" or "I shouldna get an SAFC"
Last edited by vboy425; Aug 5, 2005 at 09:30 AM.
