I love the idea of basing the day at the shop for several reasons.

most importantly so we can have a evo meet including non dyno flash customers so I can meet some more evo owners and share car stories

secondly - if any cars need corrections - eg boost leaks, etc then we will have a quick easy way to get the car fixed

third - it seems like a good place to get those last minute mods before your custom tune

BTW - the base dyno flash is $199.99 and you can get it installed and tested on your car during this event and save the shipping costs and down time - and get a free road test and quick scan to verify proper operation

 

we should meet in groups first. okijack, why don't u take dallas
I"l take arlington. Whoever in the arlington or close wants to meet up first.... =D

Number is 6824729453

Ronald

 

I'll be in arlington after may 15th, so I'll meet up with you Ronald.

 

No prob. If anyone wants to meet up and ride over to the shop as a group, give me a buzz. My cell is (1888) 303-0668. I live in The Colony (Next to Lewisville & Frisco). I will post up directions to the shop tonight. You can also check out the shops website at www.evo8.com.
Jack

 

I'm glad that this came together so smoothly.

 

Alright. The address to the shop is:
5900 Huddleston, Suite 122, Fort Worth, TX 76137. Their phone number is: (1888) 220-8015. If you are driving from DFW airport, the directions you would take are:
Take 114W to 121S (Towards Ft. Worth). Follow 121S to Loop 820W (Do not take 820S).
Exit 820W at Exit 19 (377-Denton Hwy exit)
Turn Right at the stop light. Drive approx. 1.5 miles on 377N (You will pass through 3 stop lights).
At the fourth stop light, Turn left onto Watagua Road (The intersection has a used car dealership on the left). Take the first left off of Watagua Road. This is Huddleston. Drive past the red building on the left and you will see two long tin warehouses with blue roofs. IPDG (Import Performance Development Group...aka EVO8.com) is located in the second tin warehouse, Bldg # 5900. Drive to the end of the tin warehouse. Suite 122 is the last office.
Jack

 

have the official dates been set for this event? Is it May 21/22 for sure?

 

Too bad you guys aren't dyno tuning, or moreover using Alamo in Arlington. I operated the WinPep software at the Vishnu dyno day there a few weeks ago, and they'll still be in the database.
It would sure be interesting to compare some numbers, and Brice (Alamo) is reasonable. You should go for it, Al. I've seen your remarks about the Texas results on your F- Vishnu site.

There would be nothing wrong with a little ***FRIENDLY*** dyno competition on EvoM between two vendors, would there? I'd like to compare graphs and results.

 

I would love to have some fun and so some tuning "challenge" or showdown

However - the sad reality is that few if any of my customers drive their car on the dyno every day

My tuning is not really some marketing tool to promote myself out of making huge power off of a customer's car (thats what my car is for). I feel most of my clients seek long term reliability, saftey and smoothness all of which is very difficult to quantify on a dyno without reviewing all the relavant data logs, a/f ratios, ign timing and knock counts

IF we can find a customer who wants to sacrifice his car to some dyno show down then I am very happy to participate

Also - please - PLEASE - note that ALL my dyno and street numbers are achived utilizing 100% FULL and unmolested factory knock sensor ign timing control

It would be hard to match a reflash with full knock protection and safety against any tuning methods which substitute tuner adjustable knock thresholds.

also - PLEASE note that my dyno sheets are very health in the power department and the success of my tuning is widely reported on this board

also - finally - PLEASE note the 1/4 racing and road course results and domination which my customers have achived with my simple $199.99 through the mail reflash and also my custom tune

Dynos are nice tools for diagnostic and testing purposes - however they do not load accurately to the real wind and tire loads on the road

Did you know that Ferrari tests all its F1 engines on an engine dyno INSIDE a wind tunnel

Did you know that Steve Dinan of Dinan BMW uses a $7,000 fan on his dyno tuning to try and more accurately simulate real world air flow

I have nothing against dynos - however when I am tuning a road customer who is daily driving his car, I am much more comfortable adjusting it on the street and knowing that the settings are dead on 100% accurate under partial loads - down hill, regular loads - flat and more loads - uphill.

When it comes to my home base Dyno Jet at Pruven Performance - I have spent so many countless hours of tuning on it that I know exactly where to set the boost, collant temps, fan , etc etc etc to get a real CLOSE read on the real street loads

On outside dynos - I never have the comfort level on them to be doing tunes for street drivers - unless I do the street tune first and then follow up on the dyno

Of course MANY, MANY of my street tuned customers have been onto the dyno after their tunes with great results

The dyno is great to use to measure before and after gains

BTW - I was just curious to know from you as Vishnu always seems to tout the load bearing dyno dynamics dynos for his tuning purposes - hOW is it possible for him to have used the primative dyno jet dynos during all these dyno sessions ??? Thats something that has puzzeled me for some time

 

Al,
You handled yourself very well. If only everyone else on the sidelines would follow your lead (and Shiv's for that matter).

I agree that it is very difficult to compare dyno numbers. One could easily make monster hp while sacrificing area under the curve and drivability. Unlike you, most of us do not have the desire to push the stock parts to the point of breaking. Of course, we are not running the times you are either.

Hope you have a great time in Texas. I would love to be there and talk cars, but we've got a Dyno Day planned in Austin. Send me a PM if you are interested in a nice really cheap hotel in Dallas.

Robert

 

Thanks man - I will get in touch soon about that hotel

BTW - Something I forgot to add

Right now there is an event called the OTC going on in Cali

Its 5 different road courses with numerous drivers in all the cars folgging them for hours to try and squeeze out the fastest laps possible

Its in situations like this OTC race - in real world situations where the reality of HIGH performance meets the even more serious reality of BLOWN up engines - thats is where you see the real test of a tuner and his vision of tuning

Now that I have a "track" record of my own of having my car make it to each and every event and also perform feats like my 125 mph drag pass and then do a 3,000 mile road trip - and also having so many fully satisfied customers who are enjoying my tunes without ANY indcidents of engine problems

I am showing that reliability and durability are not just buzz words - its the reality of Dyno Flash

While the past arguments and debates were certainly helpful to get the word out about my product and my tuning - at this juncture I am choosing to no longer participate in such counter productive and negative spectacles. With some very decent and well respected companies assisting my motorsport efforts I feel it is no longer fair to those who are sponsoring me to act like a retard and jump into every flame fest - no matter how great the temptation. Furthermore, I appreciate the chance that blonde and the other moderators gave me and I am trying my best to honor my promise to behave and contribute in a positive manner to the Evo community.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Al. I look forward to having a civil technical discussion with you as we always have together in the past!

Let's do it; I think it would be a blast! If you're ever in the area, I'd be more than happy to donate my car as a "Vishnu mapped" vehicle to use as a comparison for a shootout.

While that is certainly true, the converse is true as well. It is also a fact that the street cannot relate information to you regarding what amount of torque you are putting to the wheels at any/every given RPM point. A tuner can look for target EGT ranges, air:fuel values, as well as manipulate timing advance and retardation, but a dyno can quantify all these variables for him. I liken it to baing a cake: All the ingredients are there, but the dyno is like the ultimate measuring cup, and you can see if any ingredient is just enough, too much, or too little. Hence, the street is for driving while a dyno is for tuning.

While I think your car's output is great (it definitely makes my stock turboed car look tepid in comparison), and I agree that it is a good marketing point to glean interest in your company, I'd like to see more Dynoflash customer car results from different dyno types and facilities across the country. I'm sure you'll agree that the average Joe consumer is probably not financially able to replicate your setup. Well, maybe over time, but a turbo upgrade is a decent way off for most Evo owners.

Who wouldn't with a $30,000 car? I expect reliability, repeatability, power, AND a margin of safety. With so much competition out there, we should sift through the BS and see what/who really does come out on top in these categories through friendly competition. After all, that will just make the product better, right?

I'm a little confused here. When you say "sacrifice, do you mean "lend"? I've been dynoing my cars for years and years with no adverse effects.

Correct me where I am wrong here, but if you don't manipulate timing at all, can't the same results of a Dynoflash be procured from an SAFC and a boost controller? Granted, IMO a reflash is a much cleaner solution (I had a shelf mapped reflash, but now I have an XEDE piggyback and a lighter reflash that is similar to the reflash you provide to UTEC customers).

It certainly would for power output! If you safely advance the ignition timing in areas, you can make a great deal of power without inducing knock! Again, I want the best of both worlds.

I'm not trying to bring that into direct confrontation- but rather a healthy competition! I'd like to see dyno sheets from the same dyno from different tuners with SAE corrections applied to both. I'd like to see air:fuel, boost, horsepower and torque graphs in direct comparison as well. So much sweeter if the cars happen to have identical mods.

This is going to take me awhile to comment on, but the first thing I'd like to talk about are roadcourse/autocross results. I'd actually like to check your sources in that, because there are some wicked drivers campaingning Evos with different tuner parts. Driver plays a gigantic factor here, followed by tires and suspension, then power output. A highly skilled driver in a stock 170whp Integra Type R could humiliate an average driver in a prepped 380whp Evo. Roadcourse and autocross times are definitely more about maintaining speed than slight acceleration differences. That said, lets go on.

Next up, the dragstrip. I saw that some of your customers broke 11s recently. Congratulations! However, I think Buschur Racing still has the record on the stock turbo. That might not be correct, but I'm sure you have quicker access to the information than I do. IIRC, those 11 second cars were pretty well modified, I guess that's par for the course to get 11s out of the 16G, which shortly thereafter requires upgrading/replacement. I also saw you mention something about the official record breaker using an SAFC as well? This is confusing to me. Is the Dynoflashed used for the street map and the SAFC used to wick up the tune for a race gas map? Unless you are using two different maps for separate applications, why utilize the SAFC at all?

The dyno that is local to me and the system I have the most experience with BY FAR is a Dynojet. I have a little bit of experience with a Dynapack and a Dyno Dynamics system as well. I'll agree that the Dynojet and WinPep software are pretty long in the tooth for loading purposes, and VERY outdated for partial throttle applications. More on that later.

Ah, the benefits of being a supercar manufacturer.

That's pretty cool. I hope he purchased it with the intention of forced induction upgrades and not for NA purposes like chipping E36 M3s. That's a lot of coin for the (relatively) miniscule gain you see from tuning an otherwise stock normally aspirated Inline 6. But then, he's Steve Dinan, and he has a gigantic company whose products are highly regraded. That fan you are referencing is not a bad marketing move for him in and of itself if you think about it. Let's talk about Evos again, though, we seem to have gone off on a tangent.

I'll agree that they are 100% dead on safe. But I'll maintain that the butt dyno is an incomplete tool at best, and I want to extract maximum power from my car as well as maintaining that safety net!

The thing I don't like about Pruven is that its not a great yardstick. There have been other companies that have had dyno days there, and their results were A LOT higher than other dynojet results. Alamo in Arlington, TX is a great example, and the main reason I wanted to enter this thread, as referenced before. Since you'll be there locally, I'm sure at least one or two of your customers might like to schedule their time on the rollers. Shouldn't cost much coin at all, but the results could really speak for the Dynoflash maps.

Do it. You can fine tune it at that point and see how well your ingredients mixed into the cake. Again, the dyno is a tuning tool. Some read very low, some in the middle, and some read quite high (Pruven comes to mind, but TurboXS wheel removing Dynapack system even moreso.. They revised their stock Evo numbers to above the 250whp range!!! That's pretty wild to me). But again, that's their yardstick. Confusion never needs to occur if we can compare results on the same dyno, or better yet on the same day, or the ultimate challenge, on the same car!

There are a lot of Dynoflash customers out there, and I'd love to see some off the examples of mail order flashes without race gas and SAFC intervention. Most of all, I'd like to see them at places other than Pruven. Certainly that would be pretty easy for you to provide. I'm not meaning to be lazy, but I bet you could access them almost instantly where it would take me a lot of searching.

Here, we agree 100%!

I'm very happy to answer this question for you! Since you brought Vishnu's dyno up, I'd like to tell you why I think its awesome for shelf maps and baseline points to start tuning on other dynos:

1) CLOSED LOOP TUNING, BABY!! The XFlash increases fuel efficiency as well as it utilizes closed loop. AFAIK, the Dynoflash only utilizes open loop at WOT.
2) Diagnostic functions- Got a boost leak or a problem at a certain rpm level? Load the car with the eddy current dyno and find out the problem.


As far as using the another system for a dyno day, for open loop WOT tuning, they serve their purposes and can show repeatable power. I'd prefer a to have a more superior system at home to tune closed loop, but the base maps do that already. At the dyno days, those are already taken care of.

 

Noize - interesting points - I will get back to you when i have more typing time

Just let me briefly say that I spent the first three months of Dyno Flash on the dyno virtually every day mapping almost every possible combination of mods. I still hit the dyno at least 2 - 3 times a week to further refine and update my base calibrations

After over $20,000 in dyno time - I have all the base maps all set and completed. We no longer need to figure out the base timing curves and see what effects various combinations of cams and mods have on VE. After a certain point we no longer have to spend hours playing with the timing putting in and taking out on say a evo with a HKS RS kit, 3 " exhuast, 264 cams and a boost controller - we have already tuned dozens with the same set up.

And while i'm on the subject of dyno tuning, how is it that some tuners are able to pump out cars in one hour each? Often it takes me just over two hours to dial in a car that is having some unique issues going on and the average is just under two hours with all the checking and rechecking we do. How can you duplicate partial thottle, full boost on a Dyno Jet like the one at Alamo? Doesn't it take a lomng time to simulate all the various gears under all sorts of driving conditions and make sure that the base maps are operating with safe a/f ratios and zero knock under all those various operating conditions? How is it that I am setting up like 6 - 8 guys in a 12 hour day and other tuners are doing those same 6 - 8 guys in 6 - 8 hours or less?

The bottom line is, and my customers can attest, I will NOT STOP till its perfect. Alsmost perfect is not good enough for me. I keep going without limitatioin in time till I am happy and the customer has been shown all the data and he is happy also.

Economically, its just not feasable to burn off like 2 - 2 1/2 hours of dyno time on each car - then go out onto the road to do a road conformation and also pay for travel and lodging expenses at remote locations.

With our typical trips - we achive the 10 customer level quickly and get a group discount of $495.00 going - which is less than what some other tuners charge you for a refkash done through the mail - without any tuning of any kind. I try to maintain fiar values, thats why I do not try and inflate the priced by adding on dyno time.

If one of the guys on this trip wants to go to the dyno at the end of the tune and see some numbers that would be fine with me.

Our tuning consists of basically dialing in a particular car to the a/f and knock thresholds I have previously determined work well over time and then loading the car and testing to conform the tune works in real world driving conditions.

I assert that NO Dyno JET can accurately replicate real world driving conditions. That is why I personally test each car after it is tuned on the Dyno on the street and re-adjust the boost and confirm proper operation.

Finally - I am a very serious believer in the Mistsubishi factory knock sensor calibration. IMHO that feature is one of the best and most important saftey features on the car and IS NOT something I would even think about touching on any street driven car on pump gas. Being that I managed to make 557 whp with the factory knock sensor fully functional on a fullt stock bottom end and head evo - I don;t think it is too neccessary to "de-tune" that knock feature on any evo - for any reason.

I will be posting more information on this when I find some spare time

In the meantime guys - here is the guy I am so very proud of

http://www.otcevo.com/

Limited mods, a $199.99 through the mail reflash, some great driving and some amazing results comming in 2nd place in the first day of the OTC

In practice, our theory is working time and time again, like clock work

I do not think we need a dyno sheet to tally up which tuners have blown apart evo motors and failed to show up at track evenets and which evo tuner's evos are running like clock work. Results speak louder than sales talk and techno lingo - IMHO.

 

There are quite a few Evos in the OTC this year. I too agree that results speak louder than jargon. Show me some dyno numbers and kindly answer my replies when you have time.

Regards,

 

Alllllllrighty, then,

So are we on for the weekend of May 21st?

Are these firm dates?

????